Starfire Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Hi All, This may be opening a can of worms, but when does a project go from being a restoration to a replica? By that, I mean is there a percentage of original parts required for something to be considered a restoration? One of the guys at my car club was saying that he had an indicator panel from a Staghound, I joked that as it was an original part, we could manufacture the rest of it and consider it a restoration. Is there an official stance on this? Cheers, Terry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fv1609 Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 An old can Terry that has been opened many times before :-D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Ashby Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Fair question Terry and as old as restoration itself. No official line in the MV world, but one that maybe becomes more important as the price of vehicles continue rise, this certainly exercises minds in the classic/vintage racing world. I'll be interested to see what sort of response your question gets this time round. regards Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony B Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 On a 70 year old vehicle, what is 'Factory Fitted'? Military vehicles , being working tools, not rich mens's toys, are repaired, altered and built from bits throughout thier days. Are all the bits original pattern? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 What is this then? I built it from a 1953 Royal Enfield frame, 1950's Watsonian sidecar frame, 2005 Royal Enfield engine most other parts from scrap box or scratch built BUT the Webb forks are 1940's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arcot1751 Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Ask anyone who has served in HM Forces and they will tell you parts were swapped all the time to keep vehicles roadworthy especially on exercise etc. VOR vehicles were stripped of parts on a regular basis purely to keep others mobile I cannot believe it would be any different in say WW2 the last thing they would worry about was fitting Ford parts to Willys jeeps or Willys parts to Fords for that matter. :-D People who strive to display their Ford jeeps with every part 'F' marked and having sleepless nights until they achieve that are in the minority but they are out there. Most "working" jeeps would be a mixture of parts because lets face it with bullets flying a running jeep was better than a stationary one. I should very much doubt if there are more than a handful of genuine used military vehicles in the world that has EVERY part that it left the factory with, and if someone says theirs has I would love them to prove it. There are a lot of "original" re-shelled mini's and MGB's in the classic car world which their owners swear are original, how ? I run a '43 Ford GPW, do I lay awake at night worrying that not everything has an 'F' mark on it or do I just enjoy it for what it is, a vehicle that's had a life and brings a smile to my face every time I see it ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pzkpfw-e Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Mighty big worms in that there can! Bit like "Grandma's Broom" A good example to debate, is Herr Hoebig's "Tiger". Herr Hoebig was an owner of the famous "M. Murat's Field" in Trun. The tank is believed to be welded together from numerous bits. So, probably more bits with "Made in Germany" on them, than not. Looks like a Tiger, but somewhat more of a replica than a restoration, IMHO. The great G-13 v Hetzer debate is another example. The owners of "Hetzers" get very upset if someone suggests it's been assembled in Switzerland, taken to bits & reassembled with bits that weren't on it when it trundled through the alpine meadows!:cool2: For me, I ain't fussed if your M36 Jackson has an engine from a T54 & evidence of a "roof" once being on it. Thanks for taking the time & paying a lot to get it trundling along. If I was buying something and really wanted it to be a "proper" whatever, I'd probably expect the main structural bits to have come out of the appropriate factory, at the appropriate time, be armed with the correct weapon(s), have the right motor and gearbox and probably it's wheels being period pieces too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony B Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 See how it was done: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9m8RMHLE4A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robin craig Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Terry, Kudos to you for having the daring to ask this question, if not once again for some it seems. I know in our circles we ask it many times a year and kick it around usually over a beer. A replica pretty much always comes back to "something that wasnt". A restoration has an amount of an orginal in it. How much is always contentious. The act of making a replica is always of concern if it is intended to deceive for financial gain. If it is displayed as a replica then fine. A Belgian Scorpion made to look like a British one to stand side by side to a Sabre to illustrate the former being of the same vehicle will only ever be a replica British Scorpion even though it is made of Scorpion parts. Think it is fairly simple. R Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony B Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUo5VD3DThc Another one of intrest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mungaman Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUo5VD3DThc Another one of intrest. good clip, tony ! some nice > CAB ART < shown in there !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lauren Child Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 On a similar topic, remember that many early Meteor engines were made from Merlin parts from crashed aircraft no longer deemed airworthy. Many still showed crash damage. Technically, many a Cromwell, Challenger and Comet could probably be called a re-worked Spitfire Similarly, as I understand it, early SUMB trucks were built using recovered V8's from Universal Carrier's recovered in France. I wonder if we can persuade the Cromwell chaps to enter an airshow? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 This is a very interesting question , there have been several "replicas " win prizes at W&P show over the years . There are so many replicas out the now perhaps there should be a separate category ? i once sold some carrier hulls to an individual who proceeded to make near complete new hulls, steering and control parts, seats, boxes fittings . These to me were replicas , but now one is displayed as a 1942 vehicle ....... Would you think this is right ...... Yes it's nice to see these replicas like the Tiger but if it's a replica say it's a replica. Also buyer beware !! If you have done your best at saving and using what remains of a vehicle is one thing , to convert a vehicle back to a type it was at some point in history is another thing - but to build new or convert a vehicle into something that TYPE never ever was is a replica. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Barrell Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 On a similar topic, remember that many early Meteor engines were made from Merlin parts from crashed aircraft no longer deemed airworthy. Many still showed crash damage. Technically, many a Cromwell, Challenger and Comet could probably be called a re-worked Spitfire Only the first 50 Meteors were built directly from Merlins. Odd Merlin parts continued to feature in rebuilds of Meteors up to and including IVB but you couldn't call them rebuilt Merlins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lssah2025 Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 This really is a trick question, if you rebuild something to the exact dimensions, schematics and use techniques or parts that they would have used, is it a replica? My HSC has the original chassis, reproduction floor plates, original armor, reproduction external storage bins, rebuilt engine with NOS parts, new wiring and fuel system, and new reproduced radiator. Is this an original or reproduction? Halftracks and carriers with reproduction armor, wheels that get new rubber etc. If you start with something that is original and have to reproduce components I would consider it an original with some reproduced parts. Look at the jeeps out there, you can get complete jeeps that every single component could be reproduction. I think it really depends on how you look at it. So my Cromwell started life as a Cromwell, then modified into a Charioteer and will be turned back into a Cromwell, I will probably not be able to find a turret, so a reproduction turret will be made, but to exact specifications, thickness with original pieces and reproduction pieces, when the Cromwell is finished is it an original or reproduction? Reproduction to me is reproducing something to make it look like an original, such as the SdKfz 222s, Stug's, Pzr IIIs, kooble cars etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony B Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 This really is a trick question, if you rebuild something to the exact dimensions, schematics and use techniques or parts that they would have used, is it a replica? My HSC has the original chassis, reproduction floor plates, original armor, reproduction external storage bins, rebuilt engine with NOS parts, new wiring and fuel system, and new reproduced radiator. Is this an original or reproduction? Halftracks and carriers with reproduction armor, wheels that get new rubber etc. If you start with something that is original and have to reproduce components I would consider it an original with some reproduced parts. Look at the jeeps out there, you can get complete jeeps that every single component could be reproduction. I think it really depends on how you look at it. So my Cromwell started life as a Cromwell, then modified into a Charioteer and will be turned back into a Cromwell, I will probably not be able to find a turret, so a reproduction turret will be made, but to exact specifications, thickness with original pieces and reproduction pieces, when the Cromwell is finished is it an original or reproduction? Reproduction to me is reproducing something to make it look like an original, such as the SdKfz 222s, Stug's, Pzr IIIs, kooble cars etc. Sounds like the life of a typical military vehicle! :-D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grasshopper Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 Terry, A Belgian Scorpion made to look like a British one to stand side by side to a Sabre to illustrate the former being of the same vehicle will only ever be a replica British Scorpion even though it is made of Scorpion parts. R The Scorpion I am restoring has a Belgian hull with a British turret. By your reasoning if I mark it up as British it will be a replica of a British Scorpion; if I mark it up as Belgian it will be a replica of Belgian Scorpion (both of which I'm fine with BTW). However if I paint it green with no markings does that make it a replica Scorpion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
79x100 Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 I don't think that there is a straightforward answer to this and it will depend upon the type of vehicle and the age of it. The wonderful threads in the WW1 sub-forum have shown what can be achieved using an original chassis, a period engine and as many period parts as possible. The body work is pretty much 'replica' but I don't consider the finished vehicle to be a 'replica' but a 'restoration' Once we move into the period of complicated body pressings then I feel that a vehicle needs to contain more 'factory' parts to avoid the 'replica' label. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoranWC51 Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 When you have a limited amount of original parts to build from there's no other option than to re-create the part/parts you need. Otherwise the vehicle/aircraft/tank... in question will remain a sorry pile of parts for ever. Goran N Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desert Rat Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 (edited) If you take steam traction engines, ploughing engines etc, as an example, a Fowler ploughing engine (the ones with the winch cable underneath) would leave the factory as a new engine. However, it was not unheard for them to have been rebuilt once, twice some even three times throughout their lives as the barrel, box or boiler wore thin and had to be replaced or they would burn through or blow up if left. So, someone buys one now that's once again in need of a new barrel or firebox so although it's not original, nor are most bits several times over except the top motion and wheels etc. As far as vehicles go, isn't there a % of parts calculation recognised by the likes of VOSA etc as to what is a rebuild or 'new' vehicle ? Edited February 28, 2014 by Desert Rat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niels v Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 I read some where with regards to vintage Bentleys, where saloons frequently are butchered to make Le Mans replicas. That they are considered, originals if the chassis, and drive train are original. sadly I cant find the link. Personally I dont like to alter post war modifications on my vehicles except when I can find a original replacement part, because I will always know that it was made by me and not in periode. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lauren Child Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 When you have a limited amount of original parts to build from there's no other option than to re-create the part/parts you need. Otherwise the vehicle/aircraft/tank... in question will remain a sorry pile of parts for ever. Goran N That's the difference between Conservation and Restoration though. With conservation you try to preserve the artifact as best as possible, slowing the rate of decay but not changing it (as far as possible). Restoration is returning it to an earlier/better condition using non-original elements (to a greater or lesser degree of accuracy). Restoration gives a greater representation of history but adds error to the actual item history. A replica is something else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baz48 Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 That's the difference between Conservation and Restoration though. With conservation you try to preserve the artifact as best as possible, slowing the rate of decay but not changing it (as far as possible). Restoration is returning it to an earlier/better condition using non-original elements (to a greater or lesser degree of accuracy). Restoration gives a greater representation of history but adds error to the actual item history. A replica is something else. What you can afford has a part to play, as dose what you hope to achieve regards authenticity, Laurens post covers the rest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 In my opinion ......... To repair a vehicle and replace missing parts or panels is one thing but to completely remake some thing using the odd part is then a copy/replica. As I say to many people to restore a vehicle you at least need to have an original Chassis or hull , you can't rebuild a carrier from just a back axle and some track. With regards to the Belgium Scimitar with the scorpion turret and blending parts - it will always be a Belgium Scimitar (but fitted with a scorpion turret ) no matter how it is painted. one day some one may well rebuild it back to a scimitar so it 100% correct. Its the the same as if some one changes and paints a Hotchkiss Jeep to look like a WW2 jeep .... It's still a Hotchkiss. The danger is then some one may try and sell it as a WW2 jeep. Make your vehicle into what ever you like , but when it comes to part or tell people about it at shows .... Be honest and say what it is. it is good to see replicas , I enjoy seeing the WW1 aircraft replicas flying at Shuttleworth etc.... But they are always described as such. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pzkpfw-e Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 Speaking of Bentleys. http://www.gomog.com/articles/no1judgement.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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