SCC2 (Brown) paint

[simon king]

Does anybody know of a source for ready mixed SCC2 Brown paint?

 

Frank Burberry does a "service brown" paint - but when compared with the respected Mike Starmer colour chips - it just doesn't seems yellow enough. It may be of course there were variations

 

Any advice welcome

 

Thanks

 

sk

[wally dugan]

HI SIMON

 

This age old question when I was at The MUSEUM OF ARMY TRANSPORT in the early days people would ask the same question what is the right colour so as i was in a postion to collect paint samples from period equipment i did as well as

paint lists from war department and mod suppliers from 1900 up to the present details from manufacturers like ROSE &

CO of LEITH as well as others over the years one thing I found out was no two manufacturers produced identical shades

of the same colour so ask for a sample first they will be glad to do this if there any good so you get most important what

is right finally over the years people involed in paint making asked for a copy of the lists as one day i hope to complete it

I have seen books on the subject of military paint colours and at times wonder where and how they got there information

as some of the colours look nothing like samples i have seen on untouched items

 

REGARDS WALLY

[Richard Farrant]

Does anybody know of a source for ready mixed SCC2 Brown paint?

 

Frank Burberry does a "service brown" paint - but when compared with the respected Mike Starmer colour chips - it just doesn't seems yellow enough. It may be of course there were variations

 

Any advice welcome

 

Thanks

 

sk

 

Hi Simon,

I had the same dilemma and tried various suppliers and spoke to other restorers who had done vehicles in that colour. I had only found minute chips on the vehicle not enough for a match, but a good few years back was given some pannier frames from an Enfield that an old boy bought after the war, I sold them on, at the time not thinking about the paint sample but in my mind I knew what looked right. I bought a tin of "Service Brown " from Frank, but it was more of a green. Then a breakthrough, I was dismantling a 1942 armoured car and a large support bracket inside that possibly had not seen the light of day since it was built, had SCC No2 Brown, it had been covered so not faded. RR Services sent it to one of the major paint manufacturers and got a match, they have the spec with my name against it. If you are going to W&P I will try and remember to take a sample with me, but no promises as I am apt to forget, too many things to think of. Where are you located?

regards, Richard

[ted angus]

Service Brown is a true brown its the colour on all the steel ammo boxes. I had always understood SCC2 became Service Brown by title when it became an addition to BS 381C 0n the demise of the war emergency spec. SCC2 was always in Matt , All the samples of Service Brown I saw were gloss , the change of sheen makes a real difference to the colour to the eye ! - one thing is certain there is not a hint of green !!!!

[simon king]

thanks all - Frank's service brown is an odd colour - on it's own it looks brown but when you put it next to the jeep (which is BS298 as a proxy for SCC15) it actually seems quite green.

 

Richard - thanks for confirming my own suspicions about Frank's Service Brown. Shame as it's an easy paint to apply and it has a nice consistent hard-wearing matt finish. Thanks also for that info on the match - I'll pass on Warpaint though - bad experience etc......

 

I'll try 499 Service Brown but it looks as if it might be easier to take Mike Starmer's book of chips to my local paint supplier and run it through the colour fans for a match after all.

 

sk

Edited July 9, 2013 by simon king

[Ivor Ramsden]

Ted, I've seen other people say that Service Brown and SCC2 are the same but to my eye wartime colour photos of vehicles in SCC2 don't seem to show the same rich dark brown as SB. I'm still looking for a colour picture of a vehicle painted in SCC2, carrying ammunition boxes in Service Brown. That should give a fairly definitive answer even after considering the shade differences that Wally refers to. It may be that the difference is caused by the matt or gloss finish as you say. It's quite amazing that there's no definitive answer when you consider how many thousands of vehicles must have been painted in SCC2. When I was working on the C9B I thought I'd found an area of SCC2 but it turned out to be Finnigan's dark brown anti-rust paint - wasn't it called Brown Velvet at one time? And finally, why can I no longer do separate paragraphs in posts on here?

[ted angus]

I may just have a decent ammo box or two in the war reserve store !!! I will give part of one a dose of matt varnish and see what the result is . I will try and post the result tomorrow evening.

[Richard Farrant]

And finally, why can I no longer do separate paragraphs in posts on here?

 

Hi Ivor,

I get that problem as well and only on HMVF, no other forums, if you go to the top left of your new message page there is an _A/A symbol (Switch editor to WYSIWYG), click on that and all will be back to normal, but you have to do it for each message.

 

regards, Richard

[wally dugan]

HI

 

IVOR to what you said about the colour of ammo boxes we had a large number of them from the second world war

which where what we thought where service brown these boxes contained the POLISH GOVERMENT in exile archives

during the war these where British army issue when samples were taken and tested it turned out that it was not

service brown but what I can only say looked more the colour of milk chocolate and not the slightly darker shade

which I expected

 

REGARDS WALLY

[Richard Farrant]

Richard - thanks for confirming my own suspicions about Frank's Service Brown. Shame as it's an easy paint to apply and it has a nice consistent hard-wearing matt finish. Thanks also for that info on the match - I'll pass on Warpaint though - bad experience etc......

 

 

sk

Simon,

I heard that Frank had packed up the paint business, but from what you are saying it sounds like it is still running?

 

I was sceptical of Frank's labelling of Service Brown/Canadian Brown being the same colour, the colour cards were a bit small to get the feel of the colour, so I bought a can but it was quite obvious it was not right. As for your bad experience with another , they have a different paint manufacturer now, the company they got to do mine was HMG ( a well known major producer), and I have to say it is an excellent paint and covers well. It is not as dark as ammo boxes (Service Brown).

 

regards, Richard

[Richard Farrant]

HI

 

 

during the war these where British army issue when samples were taken and tested it turned out that it was not

service brown but what I can only say looked more the colour of milk chocolate and not the slightly darker shade

which I expected

 

 

 

Wally, your description of milk chocolate, that is exactly like the original paint colour I found on the armoured car and have now had mixed for me. I am looking at a sample I painted right now, no better description.

 

In the Military Training Pamphlet No.46 covering Camouflage, the SCC numbers were given descriptions such as;

SCC 1 Brown

SCC 1A Very dark brown

SCC 2 Cup of coffee and milk

SCC 3 Cup of tea

SCC 4 Cup of weak tea

and further on..

SCC 8 Mid green (rather dangerous)

SCC 9 Light green (very dangerous)

SCC 10 Useful dull red

[RAFMT]

I'm sure we had a set of SCC colour cards in a cabinet at work- the sort issued to manufacturers during the war to ensure they had the right colour. They had been kept in boxes for as long as anyone knows.

I'll have to take a look for them now.

[ted angus]

I'm sure we had a set of SCC colour cards in a cabinet at work- the sort issued to manufacturers during the war to ensure they had the right colour. They had been kept in boxes for as long as anyone knows.

I'll have to take a look for them now.

 

Bryan have a look at the link I just put some info re yellow upper surfaces.

http://hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/showthread.php?39196-how-many-Austin-K6-s-are-there/page3

 

TED

[ted angus]

Right chaps, just painted a section of the gloss service brown ammo box with Matt varnish I am now 200% certain we are now looking at SCC2 . the matt gives a real change to the colour and its a great match for the colour chip in Mike Starmers UK camo scheme book. photo to be added shortly ; photo nopw added

nothing technical, chose an area of the box , wiped with a clean dry rag, gave half the area one coat of matt varnish with a scabby brush !

TED

Edited July 11, 2013 by ted angus

[RAFMT]

The SCC2 in Starmer's work is pretty spot on the example at work- although i must point out this is without any varnish applied.

Of the rest of the SCC colours in the same book SCC7 is slightly out- but not so you'd notice much, but SCC14 is way too light compared to our example.

As the samples in the cabinet were from February 1942 there is no SCC15 "Olive Drab" but there is a "Special Green" which is a bright green colour.

[ted angus]

Hi Bryan , using varnish was just my low tech way of producing Service Brown in Matt from the gloss on the ammo tin.. your bright green is possibly SCC 8 or 9 ???

 

SCC 2 became a standard government vehicle colour, in my collection I have a file on painting Civil Defence vehicles. they used SCC2 to replace BS 32 Battleship grey on rescue service vehicles. the spec called for SCC2 mixed with 50% gloss varnish because they DIDN'T want a matt finish !!! I am pretty certain Ministry of Supply vehicles went into SCC2 ;

 

Sorry I digress

 

take care TED

[RAFMT]

Hi Bryan , using varnish was just my low tech way of producing Service Brown in Matt from the gloss on the ammo tin.. your bright green is possibly SCC 8 or 9 ???

 

No, this was a different green to 8 & 9 which are also in the set, this was just labelled "Special Green".

Edited July 11, 2013 by RAFMT
poor grammar

[wally dugan]

HI

 

I think the debate on the right shade of wartime paint is one which I think will go on and on the problem seems to be there is a lot of I think about when really we are not sure most of us where not even born when these colours were being used

yes there are colour photos about which are a great help yes there are books on the subject and as pointed out with mistakes written years after the event most are used as source of reference without any way of it seems proving for

sure one way or other they are correct AS I said in a earlier post I have being collecting paint samples and Data for

many years on this subject and do not feel that I by any means no the answers also I was in a better position than most

to do it these are my thoughts on this subject

 

 

REGARDS WALLY

[ted angus]

HI

 

I think the debate on the right shade of wartime paint is one which I think will go on and on the problem seems to be there is a lot of I think about when really we are not sure most of us where not even born when these colours were being used

yes there are colour photos about which are a great help yes there are books on the subject and as pointed out with mistakes written years after the event most are used as source of reference without any way of it seems proving for

sure one way or other they are correct AS I said in a earlier post I have being collecting paint samples and Data for

many years on this subject and do not feel that I by any means no the answers also I was in a better position than most

to do it these are my thoughts on this subject

 

 

REGARDS WALLY

 

Wally, whilst I have never wholey subscibed to matching to parts to get a colour, the practise has revealed and confirmed many thoughts. However we do have the definative answer for several colours; In those days the relevant authority, be it the C.D.Cam Establishment, BS or AM/MAP, issued colour cards to paint manfacturers for matching. These cards exist ; Bryan mentions above that he has been looking at the RAF Museum set of SCC colours today. We also know that virtually all the wartime colours be it SCC in the BS range or the AM/MAP specs for aircraft were subsumed into BS 381 from the 1948 edition onwards. The problem we suffer from is we are rediscovering what we already knew !! I was convinced that SCC2 had become Service Brown, I had forgotten that in the distant past this fact had been confirmed. One thing that tends to put people off X refering to BS 381 is the fact all the WW2 colours except Sky ( S) were matt - whereas BS 381 C has always used Gloss in its samples - my little experiment today shows just how different a colour looks with the application of matt varnish over gloss; something that gets even more complicated when we consider the MoD has used 7 levels of reflectivity from Matt to High Gloss. and each level looks a different colour to the next. One trap that the matching from parts suffers from is some colours fade with age and or solar degredation whereas some change tint, then there are examples that actually darken - Deep Bronze green being one that really darkens - A facinating subject - one day I will tell you about us mixing the colours for gulf war 0ne in dustbins - but thats another story.

TED

[woa2]

A facinating subject - one day I will tell you about us mixing the colours for gulf war 0ne in dustbins - but thats another story.

TED

 

I heard that during the Gulf war a batch of vehicles were sent to a civilian contactor to paint sand coloured. They got the paint a bit too yellow and the unit was called the 'Banana Custard Crowd'.

[ted angus]

I heard that during the Gulf war a batch of vehicles were sent to a civilian contactor to paint sand coloured. They got the paint a bit too yellow and the unit was called the 'Banana Custard Crowd'.

 

We ( the RAF) used FS 30279 sand ( as seen on the RAF Tornados etc often called gulf war pink) and BS 361 Lt stone for our MT and mass of support equipment . The colour to be used was dictated by the location the stuff was being prepared for. Anyway there were some stocks of light stone but very little for the Sand- The sand had been chosen in the late 1980s after trials At Kingfield airstrip in Cyprus with a Herc. Little did they know it would be needed in anger so quiickly. Any way once MU stock was used there was massive amount of signal traffic detailing mix formulas. The mixing was to be done in Galvanised dustbins; You can imagine when the lads turn up to barrack stores and say to the civvy in charge " The Warrant sent us for 6 new dustbins " You are not entitled to dustbins all your sections have skips ! What we were doing at that stage was behind locked doors - anyway we got the bins and at the same time had been tracking down masses of paint for the mixes; the guys were working 16 hour shifts 24/7 in a redundant hanger with useless lighting . As we finished stuff it was forked or towed out , thankfully the weather was being kind. One night we did 20 containers for transporting/ storing aircraft drop tanks - each was the size of a 40 ft ISO; I couldn't believe the differences in shade the next morning, one problem was we were mixing paint from every manufacturer you could imagine . I have a couple of books that contian pictures of some of the banana trucks, they were done mostly in Germany.

I imagine the units in Germany had an even worse problem getting paint for the mixes, everything was detailed by the colour BS number, of course in Germany its the RAL standard and for many shades there is no direct correlation- hence some of the banana fleets that headed from Europe to the Gulf.

So in conclusion it came as no surprise to see some of the finished products that turned up in-theatre. It was yet another example of we don't have the right stuff but by hook or by crook we will get the job done to an acceptable standard in the required timescale. Right no more sand bag stories.

TED

Edited July 12, 2013 by ted angus

[Pete Ashby]

The search for true paint shades..........I use the word deliberately........ is a fascinating subject which as others have already said can be likened to looking for the Holy Grail. The search for the exact shade of G3 for instance kept me occupied for not a little while a few years back, and what exactly is Knobels Tarmac Green some say matt black, some swear by black with a hint of dark green......all good stuff.

 

One word of caution with period colour photos, early colour film emulsions were not as responsive to the red spectrum as modern films, Kodak being particularly notable for this. Have a look at you family holiday snaps from the mid 60's you'll see what I mean. The net result of this is that any colour tone that has a percentage of red in it's spectrum will not give a true result so browns, oranges, and indeed some colours that I'll loosely call Olive will be distorted.

 

Pete

Edited July 12, 2013 by Pete Ashby

[wally dugan]

HI PETER

I agree with your comments on age on photographs but it also applys to colour cards I was very lucky that lived near to

mr Gerry Barton who owned a company called The HUMBER OIL COMPANY who made amongst other things paint for

the WAR DEPARTMENT during the war and kept lots of original colour cards and orders and they kindly let me copy what they had as you say a fascinating subject The name Humber Oil Company may not mean alot to some but I bet the name

HUMBROL does

 

 

REGARDS WALLY

[simon king]

Thanks All

 

I shall go to my paint supplier clutching my copy of Mike Starmer's NWE/France book, ask to see a sample of BS381c No 499 Service Brown - and compare the two. If it's something like, I'll use that in the absence of a good ready mixed alternative.

 

SK

[ted angus]

Thanks All

 

I shall go to my paint supplier clutching my copy of Mike Starmer's NWE/France book, ask to see a sample of BS381c No 499 Service Brown - and compare the two. If it's something like, I'll use that in the absence of a good ready mixed alternative.

 

SK

 

But remember the sample of 499 you will be shown will be glosss and your needs are matt you saw in my low tech test, that in matt it looks a totally different colour !