What is this

[antarmike]

 

I don't know, do you?

[private mw]

looks like an early home made 18 shot pistol

[antarmike]

looks like an early home made 18 shot pistol

 

48 Shot?

[private mw]

ive only 10 fingers & 10 toe,s :-X

[Stableboy]

looks like a 'transitional' early percussion cap ignition revolver which was a predecessor of the Colt type 'cap & ball' revolver we all know (and dislike..?); this style developed from the earlier 'pepperbox' revolver which had no barrel as a seperate part but instead a cylinder (this has many!) in which the bundle of barrels rotated;

 

though suspect this a later 'fantasy' piece made using original parts as it looks from the image as if the brass parts interfere with the front of the cylinders (& therefore with the ball or bullet), which would a BAD THING :red:

[gritineye]

Dunno, but this one would help one cheat at Russian roulette.

 

 

[boomboom]

 

I don't know, do you?

Looks to me to be the first attempt of a gattling gun:cool2: nice item though

[antarmike]

The chambers revolve, and the disc revolves. The only possible support for the barrel is via the brass arm and strut undernear the barrel. I doubt that is strong enough to take the forces of an explosion...In a standard revolver, surely a spindle passes through the chambers, joining barrel to the rest of the gun. This cannot happen if the chambers themselves turn about a lower pivot....

 

Methinks this , like the suicide gun, is photoshop-ed.

 

What must the holster be like!

Edited January 19, 2011 by antarmike

[steveo578]

It may be an Allen conversion probably of Confederate navy type for mounting on a gimbal on ships.

 

antarmike

The only possible support for the barrel is via the brass arm and strut undernear the barrel. I doubt that is strong enough to take the forces of an explosion

 

There are a number of Cap and Ball loading weapons without a top frame which could have been used in this conversion such as Hopkins-allan, Walker Colt or even the French Lefaucheax especially as the weapon is probably a pinfire. Lefaucheax made a 20 chamber dual barrel revolver for French Navy and commercial sales.. The number of shots per cylinder could be 5 making the ensemble a 40 shot weapon. The under barrel lever on the original weapon releases the entire cylinder for reloading by unlocking the cylinder pin- an enterprising "gun slinger" could carry several cylinders to rapidly reload like a primative clip. The barrel is fixed to the lower section of the receiver. In the conversion the barrel is fastened to the main cylinder axis by the fairly thick gun metal-brass riveted section, the weapon would be fairly low powered about that of a .32apc.

 

While probably little more than a trial weapon the "machine-pistol" is historically so well known that the cartoonist Rube Goldberg once drew it in American Mechanics (Rube Goldberg was the US equivelent to Heath Robinson -who also drew bazaar machines from the mid 1930s to mid 1950s).

 

Stableboy

looks like a 'transitional' early percussion cap ignition revolver which was a predecessor of the Colt type 'cap & ball' revolver we all know (and dislike..?);

 

There is certainly very little wrong with cap & ball naval Colts M1851 in particular better accuracy and more powerful than many other civil war period cartridge weapons esp. the pinfire types- and probably very little slower in reloading -although as the old Steve Earl song relates it could "get you into trouble but couldn't get you out" .

 

Steve

Edited January 20, 2011 by steveo578
addition.

[Tony B]

Actually, if you carried pre loaded spare cylinders the reload time on these type of revolvers was for the period stunningly fast. The cylinder was either held by a sliding pin as in this type of frameless or a wedge in the framed type. Biggest problem was if the charge wasn't waded properly it would fall out during transit. I'd suspect the one illustrated was an exhibition piece.

 

I'd suspect it is a pinfire probably European.

[Stableboy]

percussion not pinfire -hammer incorrect shape for that.

iirc the most recognised maker in the uk of that sort of normal single cylinder piece was Cookson or something similar..

whole ring of cylinders would move forward under the barrel on the brass rod, and then get re-pinned by under the barrel wedge, so in theory nothing wrong with that so long as all secured in place..

Remington eg 1873 solid frame much better/stronger that 'open frame' early Colts, even the Walker model had a reputation of coming apart.. you could still swap preloaded cylinders which in percussion revolvers is much quicker than reloading them! (think movie Josie Wales..)

no 'overshot' wadding used, Tony, usual practice would be to use grease to hold the ball from falling out, as there is little enough room (length) in the chamber for a fullhouse charge of black powder and the ball/bullet, which must not protrude from the face of the cylinder otherwise it would catch against the back of the barrel and prevent it (the cylinder) rotating to line up the next shot, which in a gunfight would be another BAD THING..

[Tony B]

Thought the hammer was a bit flat for percussion. Your right about the grease. One delight of Pepperbox designs, and these is flash from one chamber could set the rest off. I've done it once with a pepper box reproduction, sacry!.

[steveo578]

Stableboy

percussion not pinfire -hammer incorrect shape for that.

 

 

 

Fair point -most percusion cap have resesses for the cap in the cylinder not apparent on this model, that's why I mentioned Lefaucheax (pinfire) as a possiblity for the original piece but could be numerous other Belgian french british even Spanish (star) pinfire types that were supplied during the Civil War period -there are expensive but many still show up in gun auctions.

 

 

Stableboy

...usual practice would be to use grease to hold the ball from falling out, as there is little enough room (length) in the chamber for a fullhouse charge of black powder and the ball/bullet, which must not protrude from the face of the cylinder otherwise it would catch against the back of the barrel and prevent it (the cylinder) rotating to line up the next shot

 

Again fair point but IMO the grease allowed the ball to be forced back on rotation by the barrel lip (like a furniture ball catch), compressing the black powder against the primer, it's probably not so apparent in surviving weapons as wear may often make the ball a loose fit. Other 19thC revolvers have other methods of improving the seal between barrel and cylinder for example one mosin nagat design had a cylinder which moved forward on alignment to "close the gap".

 

Steve

Edited January 20, 2011 by steveo578

[Stableboy]

Here’s a photo of a typical basic model of the pistol in question: this one made by Manton, one of the very best British gunsmiths, sold a while ago by Christies

They are known as ‘transitional’ revolvers as they fit in time and engineering development between the pepperbox with its bundle of barrels (no separate revolving cylinder) and the later modern style revolvers with a top strap (ie a piece of the frame holding barrel to the rear of the action over the top of a seperate cylinder)

You can see the hammer protrudes through a cutout in the curved cap guard which is there to try to keep the seperate percussion caps staying on the nipples and to stop the firer being slapped in the face by bits of cap which split off when fired. This is usually helped by the striking surface of the hammer being shaped in a way to centralise the cap and again to control bits of it flying back when fired; granted it gives the impression of a pinfire..ish, but on pepperboxes and these ‘transitional’ revolvers the nipples onto which the separate percussion caps were fitted commonly were threaded into the chambers virtually at right angles, unlike the later revolvers on which they were threaded directly into the rear of the chambers (in recesses, as above).

 

There is no wadding over the top of the ball or bullet in a cap & ball revolver; the ball is held in by being a snug fit into the chamber and the grease helps that fit, also providing a waterproof seal which additionally provides a guard against one shot ‘flashing over’ to the powder in the next chamber, and lubricates the ball when in the barrel (helps to keep the powder residue soft);

there is just not enough leverage in the rotating mechanism of the cylinder to push back a ball into the chamber if it’s sitting proud and jamming it.

 

The Nagant 7.62mm revolver, (as opposed to the Mosin Nagant, which is a rifle design) which was taken into Russian military service for many years, does indeed have a cylinder which moves forward when cocked, with the aim of providing a better gas seal and smoother bullet transition from cylinder to barrel; but this is a cartridge weapon, not one with loose powder and ball. It is rather a Victorian over-engineered way of solving a problem compared to manufacturing to decent standards in the first place! (does have a virtually unique cartridge though, with a straight tapered case with the bullet placed completely inside not sticking out as most common!)