Tagg Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 Wow...that is not a word used over here in the states...I have seen it Furore used, but only as a misspelling of the german word. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Posted October 12, 2006 Author Share Posted October 12, 2006 Actaully Tagg, well done you for having the balls to post and put your point of view, that has to be respected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 I think that we should just let it go and get on with other matters. As I said before (above), nice one Tagg as jack says for having the balls and replying, now we have another view on the matter lets get on with what really matters on our side of the pond, OUR HOBBY :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Posted October 12, 2006 Author Share Posted October 12, 2006 Actually, I think it is a worth while debate now that Tagg is here.......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snapper Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 I think we have to give Tagg credit for joining the forum and having his say. I don't monitor the living history forums in the UK - what, if anything, do they say? I was at Beltring this year, when despite the orange smoke, it was clear that the "Germans" killed off the "Americans" including a padre, at the end of the church battle. This was carried out for public viewing of all ages and genders. I've said previously I admire the groups who put on these displays and I didn't hear any obvious complaints but do wonder where the line in the sand of all this is. To Tagg: please stay with our forum and have your say and share your interests and experiences from the USA. We have a robust and straightforward way of protecting our hobby at a time when our already draconian gun laws are set to be tightened and in a period when our popular media is at it's most stupid for some considerable time. British reserve also comes into this a bit (but not always). Also take into account that some in the UK military vehicle movement is still not at home with re-enactments or even living history, least of all with the Waffen SS. I think I've got this right and will happily be corrected. You will not escape elements of anti-Americanism in some aspects as much as we do not expect everyone to be an Anglophile. (If you browse around you will read explicit examples of heartfelt admiration for the US armed forces on this site which is right and proper). But what you will always get is honesty, real concern for our hobby and a drive to see things done in a way we are comfortable with. But you cannot please all of the people all of the time...as you have immediately noted! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtistsRifles Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 Nicely put sir!!!!! And welcome to the forums Tagg - credit to you for taking the bull by the horns and joining in!!! :-) :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tagg Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 Thanks for understanding. There is not much of a line here in the states...except if the Germans win...for some reason our public can't handle that. However at the public battle back in June we had were the Germans had to lose the battle, but what I found strange is that it was totally ok for the Russians to kill the Germans who surrendered with point blank rifle fire, or in my case...I got into hand to hand combat with a Russian, and after I killed him, their medic came up and beat me to death with his rifle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great War truck Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 Tagg Well done mate. Good for you, for all of the reasons stated previously. Tim (too) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
79x100 Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 A place where adults discuss things in an adult manner. Perhaps we could call it a forum ! I don't think that I'll ever quite understand though why people spend their time re-enacting when they could be up to their elbows in grease and old oil trying to recreate an accurate representation of a vehicle that probably wasn't very reliable sixty (or in Tim (too)'s case ninety years ago :wink:. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tagg Posted October 13, 2006 Share Posted October 13, 2006 Well because I don't have 1000's of dollars to spend on a vehicle...just on my impression Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hardyferret Posted October 13, 2006 Share Posted October 13, 2006 Tagg, 1st of all welcome, pleasant surprise in this day and age to see someone who will stand and be counted. I will reply properly tonight, as I should, seeing you have made your case Regards Hardyferret Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Posted October 13, 2006 Share Posted October 13, 2006 Well because I don't have 1000's of dollars to spend on a vehicle...just on my impression But does it not cost "thousands of dollars" to collect all the re-enactment gear for your hows etc :? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tagg Posted October 13, 2006 Share Posted October 13, 2006 I have spent about 1000 dollars so far on my impression...and I only need 200 more to complete it...however getting a ww2 vehicle here in the states would cost atleast 5-6 thousand dollars, and thats for a broken down old willys jeep lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tagg Posted October 14, 2006 Share Posted October 14, 2006 I like how all the people who were questioning my sanity...and calling me a sick sadistic son of a bitch, are now totally silent because they realize they were retarded for thinking I would post a video that would purely be about the execution of prisoners. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hardyferret Posted October 14, 2006 Share Posted October 14, 2006 Tagg, As I said I would reply. and I have not just ignored you or others, but wanted to put together a proper answer. 1, I feel along with others that the passage of time has not been long enough yet, meaning there are still veterans who endured such atrocities, their offspring. Time has not yet covered many raw nerves, Germans are only just confronting there parents/grandparents past. How if you were a european Jew or relative would you view ss reenactment waffen or otherwise, for many, many people the ss runes will be the epitome of evil. As I have said maybe in 50 or 100 years things could be viewed different, but I think not, as we have a very graphic record to remind. 2,I also feel that such reenatctment of atrocities by whoever,is degrading not only to those who survive, but those who perform them and watch them. How can such an event be viewed for 'entertainment'?? 3, We live in a world now akin to a powder keg Britain and America always has had extreme right wing groups i.e. combat 18 to name but one anything that gives these people a rallying point etc must be viewed negatively. Iam not saying for one minute that there is an infiltration of neo-nazi in reenactment but it puts on public display their hero's and as they say any publicity helps. So I have stated some of what I believe, and ask you please consider and question your actions very deeply and sincerely, not for my or others hobby , more for the respect and great debt we owe, and for human decency. regards Jerry hardyferret Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great War truck Posted October 14, 2006 Share Posted October 14, 2006 Whoah! Steady there Tiger! I have been considering how to reply logically to your comments. I knew that you were not posting a video just showing executions, but incorporating a recreation of a "war atrocity" during a battle reenactment. I have been in re enactments where this happened and felt very uncomfortable about it. Filiming it and posting it to the web is another matter. As you say, things are very different over here as they are from over there especially at public battles reenatments. The tabloids do love attacking us whenever possible and are always on the look out for ammunition. The Military Vehicle Trust (MVT) used to stage regular battles at their shows. However they banned all SS Units a while back. This arised as a result of a number of complaints from WW2 veterans about them doing the Nazi salute and one particular SS unit fielding a WW2 SS veteran in a reenactment. Anyway, two years ago the MVT banned all german reenactors from their shows, however they did not stop the reenactments. An example of this occurred at the National MVT show when a group of 50 US renactors, supported by halftracks and 6 tanks attacking a small group of trees. The trees did lose the battle incidentally. The SS do appear at other shows (for now) such as Bovington, W & P and Detling which all appear to be unregulated, although this may change. At the W & P show i observed a group of skin heads who were enjoying the show. The one in front of me had the joyful expression "Too White for You" tattood on the back of his head. Other nutters from around the world were also there. A group of Dutch political facists were also there. A family of four who on arriving at the show in their camper vans, raised a flagpole in the car park from which they flew a swastika. The family then reappeared from their van wearing various Nazi uniforms (Brown shirt, Hitler Youth and Hitler Maiden) which they wore for the week that they were there. Every morning they would fly the swastika, salute it, and every evening they would hold another ceromony and take it down again. I suppose as wearing Nazi uniforms is a criminal offence in most European Countrys, coming to the W & P show is a way that they can live their life in the public eye and dress up without criticism (a bit like transvetites and people who like to dress up as babys - so SKY seems to tell me - not from my personal experiences you understand). I feel that my hobby is being hijacked by others and that the newspapers love a good story and would be thrilled to print this sort of thing. The Government has to react to public opinion and would be forced to leap in. The staged execution is small in the context of this, and obviously we do need to put out house in order first (especially at W & P) as it seems that we are doing this ourselves. Although saying that i have not seen pictures of it on the web. Executions and atrocities took place on all sides. We must not forget about it, it is part of war. These things have always happened and always will. But re enacting it and making it available for the world to see will pander to the whims of those who will want to ban our hobby, and this is a serious possibility. The re enacting hobby can exist without the MV hobby and vica versa. However the two can work together very well and many would say compliment each other. But we are all tarred with the same brush and if one screws up bad then we all suffer. The purpose of my initial post was my concern that your video will have a negative influence upon my hobby. I dont think you a sadistic SOB or insane, although some of the people that are reenacted are. Your video showed a non understanding of the difficult situation we face to our hobby in Europe (and understandably so), and which is creeping ever closer towards you in the USA. The ban on certain MV's is present in France and is something that will face us here soon i am sure. I believe that one US State is looking to ban private ownership of all MV's. With the rise of the Christian Right in the USA, how safe is your hobby (maybe even safer perhaps?). If a shooting at school were ever related an insane re enactor, what chance has your hobby? It wont take much for us all to fall together. Some are more vulnerable than others, but we are all vulnerable make no mistake about that. Tim (too) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great War truck Posted October 14, 2006 Share Posted October 14, 2006 Sorry, i was responding to Tagg not you Jerry. We were obviously writing at the same time. Tim (too) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hardyferret Posted October 14, 2006 Share Posted October 14, 2006 No probs Tim, Would appear we have the same views and the same VERY real fears, I didn't realise that the neo types were about to this extent at our shows. Tagg you have to see what we mean........ Hardyferret Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtistsRifles Posted October 14, 2006 Share Posted October 14, 2006 I like how all the people who were questioning my sanity...and calling me a sick sadistic son of a bitch, are now totally silent because they realize they were retarded for thinking I would post a video that would purely be about the execution of prisoners. Tagg - in part - welcome to the problems of the faceless communication caused by the internet. To talk with a person face to face is to see the feelings and emotions as the person talks - both ways. I doubt very much, had you been talking face to face, the implication you were a "a sick sadistic son of a bitch" would even have arisen. As Jerry says in his subsequent posting the SS runes in Europe have probably got a far more evil reputation than over in the US. Such a portayal over here would (I'd like to think) not be allowed for anything other than a historical doumentary. I guess in the USA things are seen differently and, prior to the internet boom, this would not matter - a case of "what the eye doesn't see the heart doesn't grieve over". Now, though, these different views can be seen globaly thus hence the eruptions this side of the pond. Again differing countries and cultures have their own problems - most notably for us the far right wing groups. I've no idea how things stand in the USA but over here the culmination of many factors - various Gov't policys, Islamic fanatics etc - are giving the far right a fertile breeding ground, so much so that far right groups like the BNP are getting voted into power in local elections. Out of 13 seats on my local council, 11 are now filled by members of the BNP. :-o Like it or not there is probably going to be a "knee jerk" reaction soon to stop this by the currently elected Gov't and anything associated with them will be impacted. This will include the subject of re-enactement and possibly even MV ownership if the UK Gov't have ANY reason to consider them to be tied and I'm afraid over here the ties between the far right and those who think highly of the SS are too well documented for it to be otherwise. Remember the words of Kilpings "Ode to a POlitician" and you'll understand why. Tim (too) makes the point that the media are always willing to jump on the political bandwagon and unfortunately the internet these days is their happy hunting ground. One hint from a politician that they are looking into our hobbies with a view to a ban will see the media in a feeding frenzy looking for reasons to ridicule us and get us out of the way. Maybe in hindsight - which as we all know is always 20/20 - the point we all tried to make should have been if the video was to be displayed then it would have been better off on a private server like some ones personal web space. That way at least it been found by any one this side of the pond it would have obvious from the outset that it was a purely US based group involved and thus could not have been used to focus on the Europeans groups. As for the topic of war atrocities - I'd venture to suggest that those who've come out of a war would describe the whole business of war as an atrocity. No one comes out of conflict untouched - for some the scars are physical, for others they are mental caused by the loss of friends and the sights beheld. For any other view of war - of any era - the finger of blame goes to the film industry - how many films show units returning from operations in a balanced and presentable way when the realiity is that you are filthy (apart from weapons), usually hungry, edgy with a habit of dropping into what used to be called the "1,000 yd stare" andtired beyond sleep....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hardyferret Posted October 14, 2006 Share Posted October 14, 2006 Thank you , Neil for your last comments wish we could actually show these people the reality. cold wet scared yes scared not heroics and gung ho dead tired filthy just wanting to sleep and eat (you know how to get the memories going) , not ready for an allniter and the couple of very pretty Viet hookers... Saying that though, after a bad one we returned as a company to a full debrief with the CO who stood in front of his map board, and said right I won't conduct this debrief But.... then appeared 2 very nice girls and some music kicked up!! The co just said they'll get more of your attention than i will well done!! Now there's a area our dear old MOD could improve on!!! RnR yank style!!!!!!!!!! Sounds like you have real probs in your area... Regards Hardyferret Jerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtistsRifles Posted October 14, 2006 Share Posted October 14, 2006 Like I said elsewhere Jerry - if you wanted to show people the reality of the war in media then first you'd need a way of conveying the smells, feels and tastes of action as well as the sight and sound - and then no one would go watch such films; the only one's who'd make a profit then would be the cleaning firms after the first screening.. My wife would give you chapter and verse on the after-effects. 30 years down the road of life and neither wife nor daughter will wake me if asleep unless they can do it from a distance... :-( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tagg Posted October 14, 2006 Share Posted October 14, 2006 Lol...I knew that posting something would get some replys. I understand what you guys are talking about, which is why I agree'd to remove the video. However, if it was only because you didn't like the video, well...that would be too bad, but I would not want anything to happen to my hobby, and so I will not put yours in danger either. My grandfather, and his brother both served in the war, one in N. Afrika, and the other on the eastern front. My grandfather was shot down in 42 (Served in the Luftwaffe) and then in 43 sent to America as a POW, where as his brother was killed on the eastern front in 43 (he served in the Waffen-SS). I would reenact luftwaffe in memory of my grandfather, but there is not much to reenact unless you have an flak 18, or an airplane (He for some reason always hated the Fj's...I never got out of him why as he died when I was 10) so I am honoring them both, and all those who fought and died to defend their country (Not their government as they both despised the Nazi party) by reenacting the Germans, and not letting history forget that the Germans are not evil...and anything German shouldn't be pushed under the rug. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great War truck Posted October 14, 2006 Share Posted October 14, 2006 Tagg Thank you for a well reasoned and sensible reply. I appreciate you re-editing your video, it means a lot that you would do that. As i mentioned on Youtube your video is very well produced and it is not obviously filmed in modern times. It would be easy for people to think that it was original. I wish you success with your chosen path and hope that you may revisit and contribute to the forum in the future. Tim (too) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hardyferret Posted October 15, 2006 Share Posted October 15, 2006 Tagg, I was surprised at your history, expecting some gung ho American!! Your relatives sound if they endured the worst man can, especially the eastern front. Your great uncle was particularly brave being in the waffen ss and an anti nazi, interesting how he got round party membership and swearing blood and honour allegiance to the fuhrer,party and ss. His lot on the eastern front would have been horrendous,and beyond belief. Iam surprised, considering waffen ss involvement with einsatzgruppen units IE Das reich's support unit assisted an einsatsgruppen unit which exterminated 920 jews near Minsk in Sept 1941 as one example before we consider their behavior in France in 1944, that you chose the route of das reich, as suitable for reenactment. This unit has never, in the view of many been properly held to account for it's behavior. most of it's senior officers dissapeared, the few who were caught escaped with paltry sentences, due to being Alsace volunteers. Let us not forget, it was a das reich soldier who put a baby in the bakers oven at Oradour, and the savage murder of the villagers in a most horrific fashion , the 99 hung from the lamposts in Tulle. It's these events why I consider ss, waffen or otherwise are best left alone to quietly vanish into history, out of respect to those who endured they brutal reign. Hardyferret Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tagg Posted October 15, 2006 Share Posted October 15, 2006 There were bad men in the Waffen-SS yes, but there were bad men in every branch of every army. The atrocities of the Germans is just more widely known because we the victors wrote history, and silently pushed our war crimes under the rug. People I talk with usually have not heard of the massacre at Dachau, were nearly 400 SS prisoners (Not just the camp gaurds, but alot of POW's) were machine gunned by American soldiers. What about the fact that British, and American planes fire bombed a known civilian target and killed a few hundred thousand civilians (Of course im talking about Dresden). Again these war crimes went completely unpunished, and never was there an official apology by the responsible. I don't want to see the Waffen-SS to be forgotten because they may have sworn loyality to the führer, but that doesn't make them evil. They (Like my great uncle) served in the Waffen-SS because its what young men did, it was a sense of pride to be accepted into the SS, and as one of the SS vets who was interviewed on the history channel said, "We enlisted because they looked so professional, and our family and friends told us to join the elite, and do something for our country" Das Reich's war record isn't spotless, but find me a unit of any army who didn't commit war crimes, or executed prisoners. You will never find one...especially on the eastern front. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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