Clive Elliott Interview...

[Jack]

Up on the home page - you may agree with him or you may not........

 

Many thanks Clive.

[Guest matt]

I agree with Clive,maybe not for the same reasons,but I do agree.

 

Matt.

[ArtistsRifles]

Same here!

 

I love the vehicles as an engineer, I have cause to remember what it is they were built for and what they were actually used for (not always the same thing...)

And above all cause to know that the reality of war is far, far removed from the re-enactment scene - there is no glory or "gung-ho" in the reality of war and if the true sights, sounds and smells were portrayed no one would watch. Theyd be too busy barfing up their last few meals.....

 

However - I do feel renactment has a useful part to play in history in the same way as the Ermine Street Guard aids understanding of Roman ways - but staged battles need to reflect more closely the mix of forces & equipment involved, we have enough problems with Hollywood rewriting history without aiding them.

 

Just my tuppence worth here......

[hardyferret]

Real pleasure reading Clive's remark's

I must agree as I find a lot of re-enactors slightly worrying, why does anyone need to portray Das Reich I'm sure th survivors of Oradour would have a comment or two!!

I have looked at a number of German re-enactor sites and a little disturbed...

I'm sure there will be a lively debate.

Living history fine and the groups I've seen fantastic, history brought to life and the public from what I have seen are fascinated.

The reenactments I feel are an excuse to have a pyro displayand play WAR which sorry ain't a game trust me it hurts..

 

Regards HardyFerret

[Mark]

Mmmm!!

[berni]

i am a tad AC/DC on this one & being involved in the two hobbies can see both sides but if you are totally AC you will never see the DC side & if you are all DC you will never see the AC side.

ta

Berni

[Degsy]

Are you sure about the AC/DC Berniand does Russ know? :? :-D

[ArtistsRifles]

Are you sure about the AC/DC Berni and does Russ know? :? :-D

 

 

Oh dear........ :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Enigma]

AC/DC? For those about to rock, hells bells , whole lotta R :rofl:osie

[Jack]

I still convinced that you can't have one without the other :?

[Great War truck]

I have made my views clear on this in the past and must admit that some of the re enactors are not helping themseslves, their hobby or mine very much.

 

If you take a look at

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5LImE5pAcc&mode=related&search=

 

you will see the chaps from Das Reich apparently executing allied prisoners and then posting it on to youtube for everyone to see. The actual execution seems to have been edited by the cameraman pointing away for a second. Before there were allied prisoners kneeling down with their hands behind their heads while an SS stands behind them with a gun pointing at their heads. The camera returns to see a line of corpses with SS soldiers pointing their guns at the corpses. The next shot shows the SS driving away in a half track. Ok, so films like "Come and see" show the SS killing people, i understand that. Re enactors do it occasionally (although hopefully not at public shows). But filming it and posting it on youtube is surely a step too far. The average person who sees this will tar us with the same brush and think that we are all insane. I found this just a bit too disturbing.

 

Thoughts anybody?

 

Tim (too)

[Mark]

Does not say a lot for the "allied prisoners" either, but everyone has their right.

[hardyferret]

please correst me if Iam wrong so das reich and other reenactors are staging mock war atrocities for film/video??

If so I'm sorry this goes to a level i thought no one could stoop to, Mark in reply to every one has their rights consider the survivors of such actions and the widows children etc what of their rights no one considered them.

If such reenacting is taking place even on private venues, Iam appalled you will all hopefully notice no wisecracks etc.

I had hoped(?) that reenactors wers potraying reality with sensitivity, but I'm now realising respect is lacking suppose many have no direct link to anyone who endured the horror of conflict yes horror.

Let me put it into context next time you see a geat star being hit by a 7.62 AK round in the torso and walking it ain't true as any high velocity round will leave a hole the size of a plate with the receiver crying for mother or god amazing how people turn religious even the most stance atheist.

So those who have been there find this glorification disgusting and degrading to those would paid that ultimate price for people.

I know we now endure a society of complete tolerance for anything but surely there is still some decency left.

 

Jerry

[Great War truck]

Come and see

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5LImE5pAcc&mode=related&search=

 

Tim (too)

[ashley]

I totally agree with you Tim (too) and hardyferret,

to actually film such a scenario is bad enough, but to post it on a public viewing platform is as far as i am concerned complete and utter stupidity :nono:.

Yet i also agree with Jack, an extension of military vehicle ownership is living history/ re-enacting, and these are what the public want to see these days. Far from the early days of MV collecting when the Public were happy just to see the vehicles in static displays and arena appearances, things have moved on.

 

At the Horndean show this year i was watching some of the SS re-enacters, some accurate portrayals were evident, but also the fanaticism (aggression) was also very evident from one or two participants, and any of you who know me fairly well also know i have a keen interest in modern German military history (from 1900 - 1957) but find some (and it is just some) of these people somewhat disturbing who portray the political side rather than the military side.

 

But on saying that the German armed forces (mostly ) of the the period 1935-1945 were politically indoctrinated, apart from that....... great vehicles, uniforms, arms and armaments, and some people who fought `for germany`

 

Ashley

 

 

[Marmite!!]

Would we be having this discussion if it were German prisoners being shot??

 

The video has been viewed 2,361 times with only one negative comment..

[ashley]

Would we be having this discussion if it were German prisoners being shot??

 

Yes i believe so,

i know it has been documented that Allied soldiers killed prisoners of war but it was rather the exception than the norm.

But with the SS being such a political pawn of the Third Reich and the documented fear, terror, and ruthless execution of their duties caused them to bring shame upon the German people.

 

Ashley

[Great War truck]

"Would we be having this discussion if it were German prisoners being shot??"

 

Good point. But yes, i think so. My argument here is that i think it incredibly stupid to post these things where Joe public can see it. Executions went on, on both sides during the war. There is clear evidence of that. I am aware of French Canadians executing captured SS during the battle of Normandy in the most brutal way imagenable, which churns my stomach just to think about it.

 

I dont doubt that executions go on in private battle reenactments, but if the newspapers had photographs of it going on they would have a field day and make the whole hobby just a bit more difficult for all of us.

 

Not having done battle reinactment for years and years and years, i am reminded of a private battle where i was captured by a group of SS and German paratroopers. The SS insisted on shooting me, while the partroopers insisted that i was not. In fact it became quite a heated argument between them. Historically accurate? Quite probably so.

 

"Only one negative comment". Quite right. Strange i think. I must therfore almost stand alone in my opinions. I shall present myself as a united body of one.

 

Tim (too)

[Mark]

 

 

At the Horndean show this year i was watching some of the SS re-enacters, some accurate portrayals were evident, but also the fanaticism (aggression) was also very evident from one or two participants, and any of you who know me fairly well also know i have a keen interest in modern German military history (from 1900 - 1957) but find some (and it is just some) of these people somewhat disturbing who portray the political side rather than the military side.

 

 

 

Ashley

 

 

 

 

I was speaking to some german re-enactors at the 2004 War and Peace show and as Ashley has pointed out above "the fanaticism or aggression" was evident in these people as they went on to tell me their jobs in "civvy life"

 

Police in the Met

Fire Brigade in London

Ambulance men in London

 

All men in uniform in or around London, NOW does that speak for itself :-o

[Jack]

Would we be having this discussion if it were German prisoners being shot??

 

The video has been viewed 2,361 times with only one negative comment..

 

 

Yes I think we would, well I hope we would.

 

This is above and beyond one step to far and it shouldn't even be discussed in the topic as reenacting as clearly this is acceptable. However, you need to have dangerous idiots like this to demonstrate how inane the augment about 'normal' reenacting can be and perhaps sometimes we really do miss the point that reenacting really is another accessories to demonstrate and teach our history.

 

I am sure that the current held view will change as the generations come up through.

[ArtistsRifles]

Would we be having this discussion if it were German prisoners being shot??

 

The video has been viewed 2,361 times with only one negative comment..

 

 

I believe we would - it's one of the major differences between the two "sides" of that period and one of the reasons I think many millions have been glad - whether they know it or not - that the allies won the war..

As others have pointed out - the execution of prisoners by the Nazis' (SS as opposed to Wehrmacht/Luftwaffe/KreigsMarine personnel) was the rule rather than the exception whereas for the allies it was the exception to the rule.

 

please correst me if Iam wrong so das reich and other reenactors are staging mock war atrocities for film/video??

If so I'm sorry this goes to a level i thought no one could stoop to, Mark in reply to every one has their rights consider the survivors of such actions and the widows children etc what of their rights no one considered them.

If such reenacting is taking place even on private venues, Iam appalled you will all hopefully notice no wisecracks etc.

I had hoped(?) that reenactors wers potraying reality with sensitivity, but I'm now realising respect is lacking suppose many have no direct link to anyone who endured the horror of conflict yes horror.

Let me put it into context next time you see a geat star being hit by a 7.62 AK round in the torso and walking it ain't true as any high velocity round will leave a hole the size of a plate with the receiver crying for mother or god amazing how people turn religious even the most stance atheist.

So those who have been there find this glorification disgusting and degrading to those would paid that ultimate price for people.

I know we now endure a society of complete tolerance for anything but surely there is still some decency left.

 

Jerry

 

 

Anybody hit by a 7.62 mm round at ranges under 300m isn't going to to be talking to anybody ever again! The impact force of such a round at that range is akin to being hit by a 10 ton truck at 30 mph, even a "wing"shot to the arm or leg will cause death by trauma. Hit in the torso and the exit wound is in the order of 12" dia, hit in the head and it's a case of "what head".

Same goes for the "lets duck behind this brick wall/tree/whatever - a GPMG will cut a house down. Provided you have an aiming reference a body behind a brick wall at >300m is as dead as a body in the open!!!

Makes a mockery of anything Hollywood comes up with - but these days thats not too hard!!!

[Jack]

"Would we be having this discussion if it were German prisoners being shot??"

 

 

 

 

Tim (too)

 

 

Again yes, as one of things that fazed me at this years Tankfest was that the Americans won the battle with the Germans. Who is to say that the US should win?? This side of reenacting is something that should be address as it strikes me as being rather insulting to the 'viewer' as it is very much a 'cowboy and indian' scenario.

 

[Jack]

 

 

Anybody hit by a 7.62 mm round at ranges under 300m isn't going to to be talking to anybody ever again! The impact force of such a round at that range is akin to being hit by a 10 ton truck at 30 mph, even a "wing"shot to the arm or leg will cause death by trauma. Hit in the torso and the exit wound is in the order of 12" dia, hit in the head and it's a case of "what head".

Same goes for the "lets duck behind this brick wall/tree/whatever - a GPMG will cut a house down. Provided you have an aiming reference a body behind a brick wall at >300m is as dead as a body in the open!!!

Makes a mockery of anything Hollywood comes up with - but these days thats not too hard!!!

 

 

Neil that is rather a scary picture you have painted there, perhaps more people should take note of that. Perhaps this is where the movement is missing the point and perhaps this is where the movement and people like your goodself can help to start to educate people?

[hardyferret]

I have watched the the video of the das reich gang,this morning and waited to the eve to think before replying.

And now question the sanity of these people, but they must have some intelligence to do a resemblance of fire and maneuverer.

They could not perform anything less tasteless, perhaps next on the list could be Mengele at work on his 'specimens'.

I know some will find comparisons as such distasteful, but how do you think possibly a child or widow of a man shot out of hand for being who he was or a nuisance to logistics?

I really have a problem of association of such people with our movement as I do not want to be grouped with such individuals, but I know we would be by the press and the easily influenced public, I wonder what headline the Daily Star or Sun would come up with.

Here we are trying to promote respect and recognition of those who still survive, and remembrance of those who are gone, and we have a bunch of nutters running around portraying headshots, presumable for their own self gratification.

Are they for real or is this an early bad taste April fool with Chris Tarrant??

Do they have no respect or self dignity? Presumably no.

 

I know this will bring debate, most likely heated with such an emotive subject.

I want no further association with such groups who behave in such a manner and question such a unit as das reich being reenacted considering their infamy.

 

I have put my position and will be counted along i hope with others

 

Regards Jerry

[ArtistsRifles]

Neil that is rather a scary picture you have painted there, perhaps more people should take note of that. Perhaps this is where the movement is missing the point and perhaps this is where the movement and people like your goodself can help to start to educate people?

 

 

Jack, I'm not sure thats a form of education that would be acceptable these days....

Cerainly not one I would be comfortable repeating - brought up enough bad memories just posting here.

As finisher to the issue of the 7.62mm round - we had the Sterling "BullPup" for evaluation when it was under development (precursor/predecessor of the SA80) - the comments returned on were generally summed up as being unacceptable as the rifle and it's sub-calibre round were deemed a "wounding weapon" and required close range operations.

The L1A1 on the other hand was deemed a "killing weapon" at all ranges - so much so that a "2 for the price of 1" could easily be obtained..

But then - our operations were conduction in relatively wide open environments, not the urban environments troops seem to find themselves in these days. For us - close range work would have been either the Sterling L2A3 or it's silenced version the L34A1 known as the Apache for some weird reason!.