Snapper Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 Getting back to the main point here: I think the people who have posted these videos on the web are reckless in the extreme and I don't want to see them. The damage they can do to the whole hobby and to re-enactors in particular is massive. How many of us who don't "dress up" are asked if we are playing soldiers? Inevitably there is a miniscule element of truth to this, but the re-enactors are taking it a whole stage further with what they do in even normal circumstances. To then have some people make videos of mock war crimes beggars belief. We know the SS were brutal. As soldiers they were brutalised in training (just like the whole Japanese army). We know they massacred POWs - many of us have been to Le Paradis and Esquelbecq to see their early handiwork. But we don't need anyone to play act reminders of it. it also is entirely correct to recall that the SS got it back tenfold from some Canadian units (etc) in Normandy and thereafter. There were tit-for-tat killings of prisoners. Some allied units never took SS prisoners. Who can blame them? The SS were often a magnificent fighting force. They looked good, too; which is one reason they attract the attention of re-enactors. But they will never be anything other than tarnished. The actions of a few re-enactors surely diminishes the efforts of the majority, even of the SS unit portrayers - who, let's be 100% honest, are the ones who cause the most concern within the wider hobby. Personally, I admire the work of the likes of Second Battle Group - who are practically professional in their business. But loose cannons will not help any of us. it brings to mind a note I saw on a British forces forum mocking idiot re-enactors dressed as British officers trying to get serving soldiers to salute them. Bloody idiots. It is high time some people either grow up or find something else to do. I do not want to be associated with such behaviour. It has the potential to ruin everything as much as any gun ban. I agree totally with the correspondent wondering what the likes of The Sun or another tabloid would make of it. They would destroy us. Make no bones about it. I know how they operate. All you need is a flat news period without any nonsense to fill pages and they will be looking for victims. It was ever thus. Keep the sensible re-enactors on board - they are brilliant. But we need to offload the muppets pretty damned quick. I doubt if they would be welcome at any sensibly run event. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kfz70 Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 Ths Das Reich group in the video are based in the USA. There is a UK based Das Reich group, and it's definitely not them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great War truck Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 Ths Das Reich group in the video are based in the USA. There is a UK based Das Reich group, and it's definitely not them. I agree. Definitely Yanks dressed as SS, as opposed to Brits dressed as SS. Maybe the threat to reenacting and our whole hobby has not threatened them as it has us. Or maybe a complete lack of taste and common sense. Actually a combination of all of these with a side order of stupidity to go with it. I remember an article in a tabloid (the Sun i think it was) about 15 years ago where they claimed to have infiltrated an "extremist group of Nazis" (actually an SS living History group - maybe SBG). The article went on to say how they ran around the woods practicing assaults, weapons training and singing Nazi songs. Not much to worry us, but the paper dragged it out to two pages and tried to make it all scary. I think that this would have been the time of the Hungerford massacre. Anyway, wouldnt the same paper just love this? So what can we do? To try and stop this threat to our hobby (which i feel it is) i have logged onto Youtube and flagged it up as being inappropriate. Hopefully they will take a look at it and take it off. It might help if other people did the same. If they got enough complaints about it maybe they would take it off. Do your bit now, then we can get back to more interesting things. Tim (too) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kfz70 Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 I agree. Definitely Yanks dressed as SS, as opposed to Brits dressed as SS. Maybe the threat to reenacting and our whole hobby has not threatened them as it has us. Or maybe a complete lack of taste and common sense. Actually a combination of all of these with a side order of stupidity to go with it. I remember an article in a tabloid (the Sun i think it was) about 15 years ago where they claimed to have infiltrated an "extremist group of Nazis" (actually an SS living History group - maybe SBG). The article went on to say how they ran around the woods practicing assaults, weapons training and singing Nazi songs. Not much to worry us, but the paper dragged it out to two pages and tried to make it all scary. I think that this would have been the time of the Hungerford massacre. Anyway, wouldnt the same paper just love this? So what can we do? To try and stop this threat to our hobby (which i feel it is) i have logged onto Youtube and flagged it up as being inappropriate. Hopefully they will take a look at it and take it off. It might help if other people did the same. If they got enough complaints about it maybe they would take it off. Do your bit now, then we can get back to more interesting things. Tim (too) That article wasin '94 or 95 I think. It was a group who portrayed the Hohenstaufen Division, if memory serves me correctly. It did cause a bit of a stir as one of the people involved was a serving regular army officer, and a few strong questions were asked. I can't remember the outcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hardyferret Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 Thank you for finding the group in question whereabouts. But and a big but we need to consider are such units as das reich for one correct for reenactment? Considering their record any portral of such a unit puts it back into view of the public along with the questions and accusations,and the possibility of such events happening here. I feel such units are better off left to dissapear into history and time, out of respect and morality. And to be honest I find living history fascinating, and very educational with out the need to run around a field playing war with a pretty pyrotechnic finale. Is it escapism or living an alter ego?? I wonder if the reenactment has grown due to the shows wanting a bigger and better extravaganza to draw the crowds in .... come to our show there will be a huge war and all the baddies lose don't worry kiddies they all get up at the end light a fag and go for a beer?? I know some will say unfair and flippant, but think to the bigger shows. I feel that a slightly cleansed and neat portrayal of battle is being served to those who need to be shown truth. I,ve listened people all ages and sexes at some events and it disturbs with comments like 'wow whata bang' cor their all dead etc etc. This is not the reality, but a glorification Concerned Jerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kfz70 Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 Thank you for finding the group in question whereabouts. But and a big but we need to consider are such units as das reich for one correct for reenactment? Considering their record any portral of such a unit puts it back into view of the public along with the questions and accusations,and the possibility of such events happening here. I feel such units are better off left to dissapear into history and time, out of respect and morality. And to be honest I find living history fascinating, and very educational with out the need to run around a field playing war with a pretty pyrotechnic finale. Is it escapism or living an alter ego?? I wonder if the reenactment has grown due to the shows wanting a bigger and better extravaganza to draw the crowds in .... come to our show there will be a huge war and all the baddies lose don't worry kiddies they all get up at the end light a fag and go for a beer?? I know some will say unfair and flippant, but think to the bigger shows. I feel that a slightly cleansed and neat portrayal of battle is being served to those who need to be shown truth. I,ve listened people all ages and sexes at some events and it disturbs with comments like 'wow whata bang' cor their all dead etc etc. This is not the reality, but a glorification Concerned Jerry Battles are an odd thing. I agree they are cleansed and, at times, farcical but it draws the punters in and at the end of the day most events need to make money, ergo, they need paying punters through the gate. When I started re-enacting years ago, I used to do them but for me personally, the novelty has worn off and I'm quite happy sticking to the living history side. Someone once said to me, years ago, we could go into that arena wearing Womble costumes, but as long as the guns and pyro go bang, the average punter will be happy. Maybe there is an element of truth to that, but by getting the kit and equipment correct, you add another dimension to it - almost a little reality (and I used that word cautiously). I don't think that living history is escapism or an alter ego, I think that its a chance to show off and be the centre of attention! It gives me a chance to meet interested people, whether they are just there for a day out with the family and are wandering round wanting to know what this or that is; or whether they are knowledgable modellers, vehicle owners or wargamers and want to know the details of the kit. It also gives people a chance to look at kit close up and without a glass screen as you'd find in a museum - we allow people into the tents to look at and examine items themselves (the obvious exceptions are weapons and bladed items) - it also, I feel, gives a bit more purpose to my collection in that it allows me to do something with it, rather than just have it boxed in the loft or displayed in the house. Whether SS re-enactment groups should be allowed is a difficult question with, I think, a multifarious answer. It's been argued about for years, and will be for years to come by people far more important than me! Just my 0.02p worth anyhow. Dave PS, here's what we do: http://www.feldgendarmerie.co.uk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hardyferret Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 Dave 1st no intention of lumping livig history and reenact together two seperate and i feel very different outlooks Have just viewed the site and impressed especially your code of conduct, Credit to you and your living history group, spot on Regards Jerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snapper Posted October 10, 2006 Share Posted October 10, 2006 Lots of good points have been made here and the chief one about events becoming places of entertainment is entirely correct. From an entirely selfish viewpoint, and for which I make no apology for, as a photographer I can tell you that getting good pix of battles is a nightmare. There is no tension - nobody is in any real danger (barring nettles, wasps and the odd hot shell-case). They are a spectacle. I know that many of the partiicpants take them very seriously and put a lot of work into them. I always have some difficulty separating re-enactors from living history. I know there are subtle and not so subtle differences - but can the public tell the difference? I doubt it. I think the hobby would be diminished without them but an occasional reality check is always necessary. The hobby needs the "Germans" in a big way. The more grizzly aspects of the SS cannot be skated over - but as said previously, we should just leave it at home. It does not mean the guilt of the war criminals is not acknowledged. I am not happy about the slightly more assertive lot "living" the life a bit too much; but then, I've also met some "Yanks" with similar outlooks. In any field of interest there will always be someone to lose the plot. I fully agree that we need to minimise the numbers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shane taylor Posted October 10, 2006 Share Posted October 10, 2006 What a mess. Hopefully this isn't wide spread knowledge as I am sure everyone is correct and Snapper is right in the assumption that if the 'red tops' got hold of these filth then we could be in trouble - just as the dust of the VCR bill has settled. It is a great time to stop and think how we can promote this hobby/movement/interest to ensure positive feelings and acceptance towards it. It never pays to get complacent. The mv world is slightly different in the fact that we do have some governing bodies i.e. the MVT and IMPS. Yes the MVT may of lost it's direction, may of come slightly staid as it is 'top' heavy with the older generation but at least it has a bark but who the hell governs the re-enacting movement? I am in agreement with people that I like to see re-enactors but then I get confused with the time living history :? Could someone let me know the answer to that one please. I am also in total agreement with Jacks idea of having two dates a year where as many people as we can ,get drive the MV to work or around the bloke or just anywhere, we have to stir peoples interest's, why this hasn't been done before is beyond me, why is this movement so reactive and not so proactive??? If the day came that this movement was under threat, how many of us can honestly say that we 'done our bit' :? Great job Great War truck under took in contacting You Tube and that is the sort of action we all need to take and if by having HMVF has enabled that to happen then HMVF and it's members have done their job and demonstrates the power of forums. Phew........... Shane. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snapper Posted October 10, 2006 Share Posted October 10, 2006 I agree with you, Shane. The re-enactors/living history thing needs clarification. I think they have their own forum website - not sure what it says. I sometimes wonder if it is a bit of a usually harmless but wayward offshoot from the real world like paintball. (Like having your own omnipresent teenage son wherever you go, not just when you get home to the little prince). The MVT is not something I can say much about. I am a member and I admire it as an organisation immensely but I have never attended a national meeting or voted on anything - hardly proactive . Windscreen is fantastic, but I agree in principal that something dynamic is required - but not about money or anything like that. I want minimal politics and all the recent schisms in MVT and IMPS have been about dosh when it comes down to the nitty gritty. At least we're all skint in HMVF! - no committees or fees, no clubhouse, no magazine. (When we do we get our mugs and keyrings, Jack? ) This forum is the future. If we can encourage membership and start to do things less talk shop based and more hands on (no dirty jokes please) then there is no reason why we cannot be an additional voice - but never a rival to the MVT or IMPS. No wars please. But this will take time and will not be easy given the distances between us. I will be happy just to be able to meet up at the likes of Beltring next year and put faces to names in a convivial atmosphere. We won't agree on everything - but it will be good fun as time progresses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Posted October 10, 2006 Author Share Posted October 10, 2006 Just to let you all know what has been happening on behalf of everyone on HMVF. I have had emails and PM's from many people and had a call yesterday from Hardyferret who was rather concerned about it all, to a point where he said he was starting to feel uncomfortable with it all. People who are lucky enough to know Jerry know that his isn't easily disturb by anything so I would use that as a benchmark of how must people feel. I was motivated by this and drew up an email and contacted as many people with influence that I could yesterday, i.e. the editors of all the relevant magazine, the chair/president/PR of IMPS, MVT, LHA and as many relevant people as I could think of. We wanted to make sure that people were aware of this video and that we were also aware of the damaged this could cause.. ..........I am still awaiting the courtesy of a reply from all of the people I contacted. Perhaps Shane is right, is the movement to far removed to see what the hell is going on, are we doomed with this sort of inaction? Jack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtistsRifles Posted October 10, 2006 Share Posted October 10, 2006 Well done Jack!! Let's hope this will act as a goad to the movement to get their house/act in order and prevent any future occurences..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Posted October 10, 2006 Share Posted October 10, 2006 Best of luck Jack with your replies, I for one would be astounded if any came back at all as the clubs have other things to wory about which is a shame as we all seem to come under the same umbrella, I for one have looked at the video and put in a complaint also to youtube regarding this, but have yet to receive a reply. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Posted October 10, 2006 Share Posted October 10, 2006 Have just sent an email to the rest of the IMPS board re-iterating the feelings on this forum, so hopefully barrels from both sides might get a response. :roll: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hardyferret Posted October 10, 2006 Share Posted October 10, 2006 Hi all, 1st thank you all for the positive response there has been to this sad saga, hopefully there won't be any sequels. Those who have contacted you tube excellent I have followed your example. Jack, as is the norm you get off your butt and excell, leading by example,always impressed. I was worried that the British disease of apathy was going to reign supreme, but this episode, I think has touched raw nerves with many. The comments have been a pleasure to read kindest regards to you all a not so disturbed :wink: Hardyferret Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtistsRifles Posted October 10, 2006 Share Posted October 10, 2006 Well - FWIW - I stuck my comments into the site: 19ET90 (2 minutes ago) Then why is it on public display here??? This does re-enactors no favours at all but instead plays straight into the hands of those who want the whole re-enacting scene banned. The atrocities of the SS belong in the past, not this day and age. Dunno what it will do but at least I've tried something............... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snapper Posted October 11, 2006 Share Posted October 11, 2006 Well done to everyone who has taken positive action. You have to admire how a bit of open debate without a trace of vested interest - but complete concern for our wider interests - has got this done in little more than a couple of days. Brilliant. This is a salutary lesson to all members of this forum that however strongly you feel about an issue, you should air it. Do not be put off by anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great War truck Posted October 11, 2006 Share Posted October 11, 2006 My attempt to flag the video as inappropriate has not worked. Please someone else have a go and see if we can get it removed. In the meantime it would be good if we could shame the guy into taking it off (or at least editing it), but i think that he is too thick skinned (or maybe thick) to notice. My latest post to it is: You are missing the point i think. I am quite aware of the war crimes committed by the allies as well as the Germans, but that does not make it OK to recreate them. If you were to reenact the torture and murder of US soldiers in Iraq, let alone the atrocities carried out on the Germans during the war by the allies and then post it to the web, i would be equally appalled. Your inclusions of these actions do you no credit to what is otherwise a very well produced film. My concern is that now that more people are seeing it, that word will spread and the wrong people will get to see it. How much would the Daily Mirror pay for it? Still troubled Tim (too) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Posted October 11, 2006 Author Share Posted October 11, 2006 Tim. I have done so but.............for some strange reason my post isn't being shown, I would why :nono: I have also asked You Tube to investigate it and to perhaps look at their content policies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great War truck Posted October 11, 2006 Share Posted October 11, 2006 Well i tried the voice of reason and this is the response: "No I am not missing the point. We had a public reenactment in Oregon, where the Germans were forced to lose to the Soviets, and after the battle was over, all German soldiers were either shot on site, or beat to death by rifles. The crowd had no problem with that. If those were Germans doing that people would have freaked out, just like you are all doing today. If you want to complain fine...but im not editing or pulling the video." I am more than a little suprised that the show organisers would force the Russians to kill all the Germans at the end of the show. It seems that we are a world apart. Anyway, i have put in another request for the video to be pulled and will leave it at that. I am so sick of this. Tim (too) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Posted October 11, 2006 Share Posted October 11, 2006 I think that all this reaction to the video (either wrong or right) is/maybe playing into their hands a bit, any reaction may force them to do another video, might be worse than the last, if we kick up like this it may come to the attention to others and get the publicity that we do not want it to have, and that will be down to us. Maybe we have had our say and best to leave it at that, we all understand that it is offensive to most on here and have had our say, BUT ARE WE giving it the airing and time that they want, bearing in mind that only 2000 'ish people have looked at it out of millions that could have over the time. I think that we should just let it go and get on with other matters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtistsRifles Posted October 11, 2006 Share Posted October 11, 2006 Well - this is the response I got: Taggerung77 (15 hours ago) Dude calm down. If this were Americans killing Germans, or Russians killing germans there would be no problem. If people have an issue with this, then fine...thats their issue, and proves they know nothing of our own war crimes, or the ones of the soviet union. How do you reason with that sort of mind-set?? I think maybe Mark has a point here though - maybe the furore here is like the media exposure the Islamic terrorists groups crave - and usually get - and ignoring it might have a beneficial effect. I don't know. It IS an upsetting video in many ways though........... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hardyferret Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 O h dear, What a sensible young man this American is.... rational, reasonable and a completely insensitive A--ehole. whoever committing whatever atrocity is not acceptable for portrayal and as for arguing that us doin' it to krauts etc is IT IS NOT In our sterilized reenactments people become desensitized, as the reality of war is not complete and their actions I.E. shooting someone in the back of the head after he has surrendered and his surrender has been accepted by his adversary is disgusting. After seeing this man's reply do you really believe these people will behave? I don't for one minute and think we should address this problem with our American counterparts. Why do majority always have a complete muppet like this to contend with. Regards Jerry Hardyferret Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tagg Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 Call me what you will, but atleast pretend you can spell German...I mean furore ?? Have you ever SEEN the German language??? Führer is I believe what you meant. To clear up some misconceptions here. 1: The execution was NOT an idea of the SS units, as there are 2 there, my unit the 2nd SS "Das Reich" and another group of men from the 1st SS unit from around here. 2: This was NOT done in public views, we actually reenact battles, and don't just do living history over here in the states, because...well living history is boring. 3: This event was completely the idea of the Allied command who is being shot, as well...as far as people know those could be partisans, which I doubt you would be making such a fuss over, or even if the allies were shooting Germans like this. (That would be the case atleast in America, I am not sure what is socially acceptable over there in the UK...we are shown much more violence, and fighting at a younger age over here and things like this are not a problem here) 4: I didn't edit the video to show only parts of the execution...I showed what I recieved, and I am not showing this as a publicity stunt, nor do I care if this gets more views or ratings, as I am not going for that, unlike you all assume I am. 5: I may be an asshole, but I know you guys are freaking out over this, and are worried that it may endanger your hobby, which I can understand. If one of you had come to me through a message, and calmly told me the situation I would have understood. I will attempt recompile the video and remove the execution scene, but I recently had to replace my hard drive, and I believe most of my videos were lost. Give me 2 weeks to get it rehosted, and recompiled. 6: Sit back, calm down and take a deep breath...I am not here to drink your childrens blood or blow up your house. Its just a video. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
79x100 Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 furore (N Am furor) A craze; wild enthusiasm; wild excitement; public indignation. (Chambers 9th edition) What is it they say about two nations divided by a common language ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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