Pardon.

[Guest matt]

I have to say I'm surprised no one else has commented on the news that 306 British troops shot at dawn during WW1 will finally received pardons.

 

This has been far too long in coming.

 

Matt.

[Degsy]

Certainly agree with you there Matt.

[Dougiebarder]

On the other hand, why should they have been pardoned-they were found guilty under the law's then, not now. What does this say about all the other soldiers who suffered the same condition's, but didn't desert? It seem's pretty stupid to be even considering this topic so far after the time, as was mentioned on another forum, are we going to try and get a pardon for a roman solider who was executed after falling asleep on guard on Hadrian's wall. :evil:

To paraphrase another opinion, the government are using this to get cheap brownie point's, there is no talk about better pension's for the real solders who stuck to their post's, and obeyed orders.

[Guest matt]

Hi DB,

 

Several of those executed were underage in the first place and should not have been there at all(according to the law at the time).others were regular soldiers who had fought through major battles such as the Somme and Yepres and only broke down after a major traumatic event.

 

To compare these men to a Roman soldier is missing two major points,these men have close relatives who are still living and they as much as anyone deserve the pardons,and there are records of the trails and first hand accounts of those directly involved.

 

To say they were found guilty under the law's of the time is questionably,they were denied any kind of defense and were clearly considered "guilty unless proven innocent". even by the laws of the time in many of the Shot At Dawn cases there was clearly a miscarrage of justice.

 

Matt.

[Dougiebarder]

To be honest, unless the families are doing it for the cash, I think it would be better to have let sleeping dog's lie. In my mind (addled as it is) it would seem better to me to spend all the legal fees that must have gone on this case on something else. I'm sure there are still servicemen living, who could have use the money for something a damn site more important than giving people 2 or 3 generation's down the line the chance to claim that their grand fathers (or great grandfathers) weren't cowards.

I'll never say we should forget the past (it's vitally important we don't), but the living should take precedent!

[biscuits_brown]

I don't actually agree with it, or at least with the methodology.

Those men rightly or wrongly were found guilty by a legitimate court. If any are to be pardoned than it must be on a case-by-case basis and based upon the statutes/KRs of the time. Not upon some revisionist view of what is "right" by modern standards.

[Mark]

I think they should have let sleeping dogs lie, why start all this when at the time it was perceived right

[Jack]

 

We have been having this ‘heated’ debate in the office ever since ever with a 50 50 split.

 

I for one is relieved that the men got their pardon. I can remember in 1997 when Tony Blair was shouting about the fact that he would pardon these men – if they won the election. It was soon forgotten after he got into power, surprise surprise

 

This topic hasn’t really ever gone away and it enjoyed some great profile only a matter of months ago and the government was adamant that nothing could be done so it is safe to say that I rather cynical and suspicious as to why there has been such a dramatic U turn………nothing to do with what is going on in the Middle East, is it?

 

 

I find it revolting that decisions like this can be made against our men. I find even more insulting that the decisions where made by the ruling classes that have absolutely no front line experience what so ever. I not to sure but I don’t think any of the men who where executed where from the ruling/officer classes.

 

Mistakes are made in all wars and people have always been allowed to hide their disastrous mistakes behind the cloak of ‘war’. It has always been to easy for them to say ‘but that is war’. I do believe that there has to be accountability with in the MoD, at all levels.

 

[Great War truck]

From the start of WW1 up until 1920, 3080 men were condemned to death of which 346 were executed (including 3 officers). The breakdown is:

Desertion 266 (including 2 officers)

Murder 37 (including 1 officer)

Cowardice 18

Quitting post 7

Striking or violence 6

Disobedience 5

Mutiny 3

sleeping on post 2

Casting away arms 2

 

That is 11.23% of those condemned to death.

 

My personal feeling is that the executions were terrible, but it is inappropriate for us to set our modern standards to something that was at the time perceived to be right.

I see that Bristol has apologised to Africa for their involvement in the slave trade in the 17th and 18th century.

Should we also apologise and make reparations to the untold thousands of citizens of Badajoz who were raped, massacred and murdered by the British Army during the Peninsular War?

 

Tim (too)

[Jack]

 

 

 

.

I see that Bristol has apologised to Africa for their involvement in the slave trade in the 17th and 18th century.

Should we also apologise and make reparations to the untold thousands of citizens of Badajoz who were raped, massacred and murdered by the British Army during the Peninsular War?

 

Tim (too)

 

 

 

 

 

To put my neck on the block......yes I do believe we should. It's about time the world tried to heal itself.

 

 

Cheers.

 

Jack.

[andreadavide]

Fact is that firing squad "as an example" of soldiers in the very hard days of the trench war was a widespread practice in all armies.

 

The French used the "decimation": random shooting of soldiers of units that behaved in a coward way, according to the judgment of commanders who rose to their ranks in the period 1871-1914, a period that saw continental Europe without major wars, and were absolutely unprepared for an entrenched "position war".

 

The "1914 Christmas truce", the slaughter battles where tens of thousands of soldiers died just to put a small paper flag a couple of inches further on the map showed a complete disregard toward the soldiers on the battlefield.

 

This disregard contrasted with the new social situation in Europe and the resulting tensions in the years after WWI are well known to all of us.

 

My country wasn't an exception. Hemingway in his "Farewell to arms" well describes the summary trials (always ending with a firing squad) of the disbanded soldiers after the disastrous Caporetto retreat. The then commender in chief of the Italian army publicly attributed the defeat to the cowardice of soldiers, thus hard punishment of soldiers was the "right" solution. Nearly 4000 Italian soldiers were shot not even waiting the dawn, but when the ink on their sentence wasn't yet dry.

 

Some additional infos here, although I do not agree 100% (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Caporetto)

 

The fact that the "Strafexpetition" was well organised with fresh German forces freed from the Eastern front by the peace of Brest-Litovsk and that the Italian high brass simply disappeared during the attack (of Pietro Badoglio, who was the commander of artillery and was the only person who, in the good old fashion that soldiers cannot think but just obey, order an artillery barrage, simply vanished and his whereabouts in the three first days of the defeat are still unknown) were not taken into account, or otherwise this would have meant showing to all the Nation how bad was the war run.

 

Strange enough even if not individually, there was some kind of pardon for all the soldiers of WWI during the Fascism, that pretended to base its strenght on the WWI veterans and simply wiped out any reference on the accusation of cowardice and treason even from the "Song of Piave".

 

All this rant to say (IMHO) that a pardon to individuals can bring some pride in their families, and this is enough to justify it. But it also set clear that soldiers fight for their country at the risk of their lifes, but themselves are part of the Nation and their lifes are precious.

 

Andrea

 

 

 

[Great War truck]

If we are into forgiveness, i think that our Government should certainly consider each case on its own merits. Pardons have been given to soldiers who endured years of hardship and then cracked after being pushed that little bit too far and others have been given the same pardon who refused to soldier the first time that they heard enemy gun fire. It seems a cop out to pardon everyone who was shot without considering their individual cases. But that was no doubt the cheaper and easier option for Blair. Does anybody know if his popularity has shot up as a result, or does it mean that he can just clear some paperwork off of his desk?

 

Tim (too)

[Guest matt]

It is apparent after reading the posts from most of those who consider the pardons a waste of time that they haven't actually much knowledge of the subject. At least read the case files for the 306 who have received pardons before referring to them as "cowards".

[Guest matt]

These are the statistics for which countries executed their troops during WW1.

 

France 600

 

Italy 500?

 

Britain 346 (including Commonwealth troops)

 

Germany 48

 

Canada 25

 

Belgium 13

 

USA 10 (for non military offenses,eg rape,murder)

 

New Zealand 5

 

Australia Nil

 

Russia Nil.

 

In regard to the British,it can be shown (beyond reasonable doubt) that under both the military AND civil law of the time,several of the executions were unlawful.

 

Despite pressure from the Brits Australia actually refused to sentence any of it's troops to death.

[Mark]

 

 

I find it revolting that decisions like this can be made against our men. I find even more insulting that the decisions where made by the ruling classes that have absolutely no front line experience what so ever. I not to sure but I don’t think any of the men who where executed where from the ruling/officer classes.

 

Mistakes are made in all wars and people have always been allowed to hide their disastrous mistakes behind the cloak of ‘war’. It has always been to easy for them to say ‘but that is war’. I do believe that there has to be accountability with in the MoD, at all levels.

 

 

 

Yes, but what about the government of today that wastes millions on the trial of "Bloody Sunday" was that a mistake? and should there have been accountability with the MOD at the time or now? mistakes are made in war and peace, but why drag up the past and use millions of taxpayers money on the things that "happened" many, many years ago and bring back memories that people would rather forget.

Times then as is now are/were very different and the "ruling classes" act upon the evidence that they had at the time as they do now, but who are we or them to say what happened was right or wrong at the time, we was not there.

[Guest matt]

why drag up the past and use millions of taxpayers money on the things that "happened" many, many years ago and bring back memories that people would rather forget.

 

Mark,two points here. I am a tax payer as are all those who have campaigned for years to get these pardons granted and I certainly do not consider it a waste of money.

 

Many of those executed have surviving family who want the pardons,so it is obviously not something they would rather forget.

 

Matt.

[Jack]

...........I am a tax payer (or prayer) too and I have no say in where 'my' money is spent - I don't partically like it being spent in the Middle East but there is stuff all I can do about it!

[Mark]

...........I am a tax payer (or prayer) too and I have no say in where 'my' money is spent - I don't partically like it being spent in the Middle East but there is stuff all I can do about it!

 

 

Of course you have a say we all do, we vote every 4-5 years on who we want in power according to who we think will represent us the best, if we do not like it we have a say or vote different next time, we are all taxpayers Matt (hopefully) and there is a certain proportion of our (collective) money that goes on things we like and don,t like and everyone has a view on this.

People today as in the past joined the forces to fight for their country and vowed to obey the rules and regulations at the time, so people did not understand what was happening at the time and took action with what they had, if this was wrong as some people now perceive, what next, how far do we go before things get senseless and spend even more of the taxpayers money.

[Degsy]

I have been watching this topic from the start and whilst everybody is entitled to their opinions I find it rather distasteful when people voice their opinions on such an emotive subject when they quite obviously have little or no knowledge of the facts.

Please take a little time to do some research, whilst it may not change your opinions, you may come to realise why so many people feel so strongly about this matter.

[Guest matt]

Well said Degsy.

[Dougiebarder]

I still don't see the point of wasting all this money. Whatever the present government say, they can't change the fact that these men were shot. Leave it in the past and move on. You'd be better bringing up the memory of those who earn medal's (who deserve to be remembered) and leave those with a less heroic past to sink in the depths of time. This might seem a bit harsh, but I bet a lot of people will think the same way!

[Great War truck]

I have been watching this topic from the start and whilst everybody is entitled to their opinions I find it rather distasteful when people voice their opinions on such an emotive subject when they quite obviously have little or no knowledge of the facts.

Please take a little time to do some research, whilst it may not change your opinions, you may come to realise why so many people feel so strongly about this matter.

 

 

Quite right.

Three of the people who are to be pardoned include:

 

Pte Stevenson who was convicted for desertion on 16 occasion.

 

Lt John Paterson who shot dead a military Policeman and was arrested three Months later while living with a prostitute in Calais.

 

Sub Lt Dyett who abandoned a group of badly wounded men in a shell hole well behind the lines, leaving them to freeze and bleed.

 

Although less than 1 in 10 who were sentenced to death actually received this sentence, a significant proportion were in my mind executed without due process being correctly followed, suffering from shell shock or there were other mitigating circumstances that should have been considered which would have resulted in a lighter sentence. Even so "When the law of the land as it stood at the time was followed, we can not reinvent the past".

 

I still feel that a blanket pardon is innapropriate and reduces the acts of valour of those who stood their ground and did not break. Any pardon should have been considered on a case by case basis, and stuff the cost. If it is to be done it should be done properly. I am a taxpayer and the Gvt can spend my money how they like and i dont really care. It will all be a drop in the ocean in comparisson to how much we spend in Iraq or even on the (chronically underfunded) National Health, which is in fact the second largest employer in the world.

 

Tim (too)

[Guest matt]

Hi Tim,

 

The information you have on Sub.Lt Dyett differs considerable from mine and I'd be interested to learn where you got it.

 

I agree that granting pardons on a case by case basis may have been better,but surely it is far better to pardon a guilty man than to continue to condem those who were innocent?

 

As several on here seem overly concerned with the cost of granting the pardons,does anyone have any factual information on exactly how much it did cost?

 

Matt.

[Degsy]

I was wondering about that too but Isuppose there are different versions around for a lot of the cases depending on which side of the fence it comes from.

[Snapper]

Next Wednesday is the anniversary of the death of my great-uncle Leslie. He was twenty when he was killed at Ypres serving with the 2nd Londons in 1915. His friends wrote my great-grandmother a string of letters to say he was a great bloke and a "soldier - not a shirker" For their loss my family got the standard "Dead Man's Penny" . The state issued over a million of them and the vast majority were thrown away in disgust. Although I like to think Les was a good lad and was brave, there is no real way of knowing how someone who was little more than a boy by the standards of the day was genuinely feeling. I don't feel there is any real distinction between him and the men who were shot at dawn who were victims of a system they could not beat. The people running it were not a cold bunch of mean spirited monsters either. They were all of their time. We don't like much about the way they thought or acted towards each other, or towards women or to the vast phalanx of "victims of imperialism" the history revisionists line up to batter us with. But there is much we do not like about our own society or what the State does on our behalf today. The two eras can never sit comfortably together. What would Les make of our world? and what would he feel towards these men receiving pardons? We cannot say - but unfortunately there is always a queue forming of people who want to tell us for him. The Bloody Sunday enquiry is a fiscal insult to our senses - I cannot speak for the political or legal aspects. If it sets a precedent then we need to see an end to the issue of those men shot at dawn, properly or otherwise. Those men of 1914-18 would be as horrified by the military law accompanying the army in the Crimea as much as modern day soldiers in Iraq would be of WW1. But they would all understand that armies have to have rules. That "Roman Legionary" mentioned early on by one of the forum knew where he stood and he broke the rules (figuratively speaking). Harsh sentencing is sometimes a fact of wartime operations within the forces. Would any of us be any happier about serving in a combat situation with a cynical coward any less than with someone who was genuinely ill? No - we would want them out of it; one way or the other. If you visit the Perth (China Wall) cemetery just outside Ypres you will find VC winners buried just yards from several men who were shot for breaking military law. In general terms these men have no distinctions - the grave stones are the same pattern and they are not buried separately. We know without the benefit of revisionism that the British Army was made up of people from all walks of life for whom a sense of adventure, duty, patriotism and religious faith played a big part in getting them to the particular spot where they died. Their deaths were all individual tragedies for our country and their loved ones. They can all deservedly rest in peace. Modern day politicking by governments looking for good PR changes nothing. If for one minute it took our eyes away from our service people in Iraq and wherever who are regularly let down by their State just as badly as the Shell scandals of WW1, then the PR men have won. These pardons are a diversion. The fact that they are either a good or bad idea is not the point. But they change nothing. You will never see the people who failed to buy body armour or invest in decent APCs facing any kind of trial other than the ballot box and these issues do not win or lose votes. This story is as much tomorrows fish and chip wrappings as the last British military casualty. It was ever thus. We may not like it, but it is a fact. Old Soldiers Never Die, They Only Fade Away. Keep them all in your hearts - you don't need politicians or PR gurus to help you.