Not original, what the hell do you mean!

[Jack]

Ok guys.

 

So a good topic was started by Steve and Dougie and seems to be a hot one so I thought we would give it it's own thread.

 

So the questions are, do you have a problem with converting a post war vehicle in a WW2 looking MV - what are the implications of that, are there any?

Is my GMC a WW2 vehicle or a post war vehicle because some of it isn't original........does it matter?

How far would you go to get originality?

 

You get the flavor and lets open this one up and have a good debate so no one line answers, please!

 

Best wishes.

 

Jack.

[Jessie The Jeep]

I still have many unanswered questions from the previous thread regarding originality and conversions, but at the end of the day, the only person you have to satisfy in this hobby is yourself.

 

For the pot hunters and perfectionists, how far do you compromise originality for practicality, affordability and maintaining the vehicle in a roadworthy condition? and do your personal finances limit the extent of a restoration, or just delay its completion?

 

The Clubmobile conversion is a very interesting example of what is an original vehicle ( Mick, I hope you don't mind me using this as an example ). Mick is doing a fantastic job of the Workshop to Clubmobile conversion, and in doing so, filling in a piece of missing history; a worthwhile project.

 

The previous owner from memory had removed much of the interior, therefore reducing originality, as did any post war modifications. A proportion of the vehicle is original, and much of the rear body, new build. While the basis for this conversion is original GMC, it wasn't originally a clubmobile, so what is it now? a replica? a restoration? a converted original?

 

For those fairly new to this hobby, it seems difficult to find any true definitions of what constitutes originality. So are there any rules in the MV world, like the 15% rule in aviation? or is it purely down to several million different opinions?

 

Steve

[ArtistsRifles]

First off - whats the definition of orginal?? As it left the factory, as it was in service prior to the surrender being signed or????

 

Once that's decided then how much of the vehicle has to date from that time to be original?? For example - you buy a rusting hulk of a 1940 's vehicle from a field. Research on the chassis number show it t ahave been in service from a time period prior to the surrender so it's a genuine WW2 vehicle. However 95% of it is rusted beyond use so you spend much time and trouble recreating the rusted or missing sections and end up with a stunning looking vehicle. 95% of the body is less than a couple of years old though. Replacement tyres have been sourced that might be, say, 20 years old, most of the wiring will be modern as will the bake shoes and ignition components. Any canvas and trim willl have been remade also. Effectively all that might be left of the vehicle is about 5% of the body and the chassis plate. Does this count as original or remanufactured??

 

A similar argument went through the courts a few years ago over the Bentley "Old Number One" and it was stated as a legal precedent that vehicles do wear out and when buying a classic.vintage/veteran vehicle it is unreasonable to expect that all of it will date from it's time of manufacture.

 

Then you have the other case - that I suspect is referred to here of taking a newer vehicle and making it look like an older one. Provided the changes are dcumented and this documentation made available to the person who buys it from the one making the changes I see nothing wrong in it. The person making the changes has then fiulfilled his "liabilities" in making the new owner aware and tit is then down to the new owners concience to tell who ever he sells the vehicle to thatit's notan actual WW2 one but a modern look-alike

[Karoshi]

I personally don't think anybody is questioning the "worthiness" of any of these conversions. I believe the original concern was expressed over the intent.

 

Lets face it, there are few Original period vehicles left in the world. Most if not all have had expedience to allow them to survive. Why even the Smithsonian Jeep is dodgy.

 

I don't think its so much a case of what it is, its more a concern for how you portray it ! If your stated goal is a RESTORATION, then surely the period manual has to be your guide. If however your goal is just a "Fun Hack" then well the world is your oyster, but the claim has to match to article, and the detail becomes important.

 

No doubt Steve will be removing the outward signs of a Hotchkiss from his jeep, wiper motor antenna mount holes, instruments etc to be consistent with the earlier period markings. Jack will no doubt be fitting correct tyres to match his goal of a restored 1944 GMC, Signal Corp truck.

 

Me? I got a 1942/3/4 & later, 12v, alternator, electronic ignition, 352 Bitsa, with false makings, and a fridge,....and I don't give a ****

[Jack]

Being an 'outsider' as such ( haven't been initiated yet) there can appear to a lot of elitism in the movement, which actually, I think is a good think thing - all movements need that.

 

The problems occur when people are self appointed 'advisors' on a subject. Most of their arguments can be taken apart within seconds ( very much like the fox hunting debate but that is a different subject). Again, you do need such people otherwise over time vehicle spec will become diluted and by the time my son is old enough to take over the GMC then people like him won't have a jumping off point, a bench mark to work from so it is important to have these debates and to a certain degree, these pressures to work to.

 

Because I came into these movement with no preconceptions at all it is interesting to note that most people hit the panicky button as soon as someone mentions 'originality' when in actual fact, no ones needs to......we all know that there is no such thing as an original vehicle, full stop, so what the hell have we all got to pretend that mine is more original than yours and vice versa.

 

When I bought my MV last year I didn't know anything about the movement, the MVT, IMPS and the amount of shows that are attended by all of us. I bought it, because I wanted one, not because I wanted to attend shows - I just wanted one. Then comes the finer details of authenticity, now no one is holding a gun to any ones head to go down this route but like it or note, peer pressure does play its part here.

 

Writing for Classic Military Vehicle (available from all good newsagents) about my 'new boy' restoration and the feedback that we have had, has taught me one thing, and that is this movement needs to bring in the next generation and they need to be encourage and guided but I think coming down on some one like for instance isn't help full for the cause because I don't know any better........but am willing to learn.

 

If people are looking to join the movement and not be intimidated by it then is has to learn to be patient, if people just want an MV and not fused about what you or I think, then so they should.

[stanpart57]

Jack,

 

Glad you managed to get a plug in about your article in Classic Military Vehicle, I've just read it and was waiting to see how long it was before someone (I suppose it had to be you!) mentioned it.

 

Like you I wanted a MV for as long as I can remember, not to take to shows or for anyone elses benefit other than my own. I had great plans for my Jeep, which I somehow always knew was going to be an M201, change the wheels to split rims, fit Bar treads (dirty word at the moment :?: ) cover it with white stars and numbers etc etc......

Of course when I actually had it at home and attended my first local show, a Home Guard day, I hid it at the back behind the 'real' jeeps. It was only when I had spent some time looking at the others be they US or British airborne marked I realised that more than half were in fact M201s :!:

It was then I thought that rather than change anything I would add to the 'Frenchness' (is that a real word?) and be a bit different from the crowd. Its been downhill from there....... no not really :wink: but my wife is more than a bit miffed at the time and effort spent searching out correct period accessories on ebay etc.

I'm happy with my vehicle and to me thats what counts, it is a 'representation' of a French army vehicle of the 50/60s and i'm more than happy to explain to anyone who asks.

As I see it, so long as you are not trying to profit by misleading anyone as to the true identity or history of a vehicle or other item then what you do to it is up to you and your concience.

 

Cheers

Paul

[Jack]

Jack,

 

Glad you managed to get a plug in about your article in Classic Military Vehicle, I've just read it and was waiting to see how long it was before someone (I suppose it had to be you!) mentioned it.

 

 

 

......but was it any good?

[mick garner]

Yes Jack, I read it too, and it was very good.

Mick.

[ArtistsRifles]

Still waiting for my copy to be delivered - signed up back in March via MilWeb and no sign of anything yet :cry: :cry:

 

So I got on the phone yesterdy and make "polite" enquires seeing as how they'd debited my account two months ago Very nice lady was awfully apologetic when she called me back - seems the e-mail links between MilWeb and the publishers had gone awry so my first copy should arrive soon - hope it's the one with Jacks article in!!!

[Dougiebarder]

Just to stick my oar in again. I think there's a difference between restoring a rusted hulk using avaliable part's, and converting a perfectly sound vehicle to be something else. I'm sure it would be possible to get a real (if rusty WW11 jeep and restore that, and leave the hotckiss to be restored as it came off the production line (or as near as possible) Rather than leaving the WW11 model to rust to nothing, and permanently change the newer one (ok, I know it isn't really permanent, but redrilling holes, and adding removed bracket's can be a real pain).

I'm not such a stickler for origionality (my landrover has the wrong carb, and way more kit than it ever had in service), I think the thing that really get's to me is that somebody would remove an origional feature they already had, to make the vehicle less origional. :!:

 

Oh and on the topic of the CMV article's, I thought they were very good (in fact as somebody who has just let their subscription lapse-I wish there were more articles like it in the magazine!!)

[Jessie The Jeep]

 

..... and leave the hotckiss to be restored as it came off the production line.....

 

Funny you should mention that. Regardless of the paint job on my M201, the bodywork changes I have made, HAVE actually converted it back to how it came off the production line. My M201 is one of the early builds, and as a result, would have had canvasses, floor starter, wood hood blocks etc etc, so apart from the paint scheme, it is being restored to its original condition!

 

An overall green coat and some French army markings and it would be original, but because of my 8th AF flying team, I chose US markings to fit in with any display we do; and because the vehicle is used weekly for fun, not showing, I bought the M201 over an MB or GPW, despite the prices being similar, allowing me to choose either.

 

Not everything is as green and white as it first appears.

 

Steve

[sean101ryan]

This is always an interesting debate, there was an ongoing one on the emlra forum which stayed friendly and amusing.

 

What the public and show organisers want to see can come into as well, we put on a huge and probably unrealistic display at some shows and the kids, parents and vets love it (hats off to the proper re-enactors who show and live the part as well though).

 

We have a couple of items that never existed that have caught some people out. The box that goes on our TM to carry all our kit is a BT van body in a steel frame painted green with a dummy NSN number and various stencils. Enthusiasts have come up and asked where we got the comms body from. We are always honest about its origin!

 

Each to their own and it's their property to do with as they wish as long as they are honest about it, just don't expect to put it on our display if it's bright orange There is an new sticky thread on the emlra forum though called "When does a Walter become a Ringer" for people to post when they see dishonest ads on ebay and the like. The "Walter" bit refers to the turning of an ordinary 90/110 into a Wolf lookalike.

 

BTW, my 101 has totally non original comfy seats in it!! :twisted:

[rapier rob]

Personally I don't mind if a vehicle isn't 100% original.

During its service life a vehicle changes, as different units make operational changes to the spec as the right parts might not be available at the time.

 

My only gripe is where someone may be advertising a vehicle for sale as say for example a WW2 Jeep, where the only part which actually dates from WW2 is one of the spark plugs!

[John Pearson]

As we say in the Midlands (England), this is a 'bostin' subject for 1 am after a few beers. (Bostin = excellent).

I know someone who has all the parts for a tank restoration and I do mean ALL the parts but one - the dashboard. This has been the case for nigh on 20 years and still no start has been made because all of the original parts are not available. I also know someone who decided a Saracen would run better with a Jag engine so took the original B80 and gearbox out by oxyacetalening a hole in the floor to get at some bolts. Also, the only running Matilda 1 in the world runs on a Rover V8 and auto gearbox and I have heard of a Light Mk VIB that runs on another. It used to be common to meet jeeps running on an Austin engine.

How far do you want to go? Original fuel in the tank? Original air in the tyres? I mean, people will pay a fortune for original nuts and bolts for jeeps won't they? That reminds me, I know someone who spent about 2 hours removing split pins from a Ferret escape doors because they were original!

I recon my Valentine DD is about 90+ % completely original to its chassis number (by weight) and about another 7% original Valentine, although from different hulls. The remainder was completely unavailable so has been made by extensive research, starting from what drawings are available and using original materials, threads, etc. Does this count as a restoration or a recreation? If any original parts turn up then my recreations will immediately be binned but because it is so rare, this is unlikely.

I have a Dingo as well. That has removable number plates and discreet indicators and stoplights. It also has the old carburettor off a Montego so starts easily and runs well. I have kept the (bloody awful) Zenith carb and if I sell it the new owner can replace it if they want but I enjoy driving it and other people seem to enjoy seeing it driven. Does this offend the Authenticity Police? Tough luck, I am not changing it!

[mcspool]

I know someone who has all the parts for a tank restoration and I do mean ALL the parts but one - the dashboard. This has been the case for nigh on 20 years and still no start has been made because all of the original parts are not available.

 

Indeed, I know him too. He has made a trip to a foreign national archives to find any drawing or blueprints, but alas. I think he is one of the people who has more fun in the research and finding the parts, than the physical restoration or the operation of a vehicle. To each his own.

 

Hanno

[rambo1969]

I think the most important thing is that someone has put time and effort into keeping another MV out of the scrapyard.

I was at bletchley park a few year's ago and there was a ww2 lorry camped next to me(a morris I think) and the owner had done a really nice job of restoring it. A guy came up to it with his mate and starting telling his mate, this is wrong, that should be on the other side, they didn't have that etc etc(rivet counter of the highest order!), when he finished slating the lorry, he say's to the owner "is this yours", the owner says "yes" and the rivet counter starts saying"I hope you don't mind me pointing out all the stuff that's wrong".

 

The owner then get's a photo album of his dad during ww2 driving the same lorry and the photo's where exactly the same as the lorry at bletchley. He then told the rivet counter "to p*ss off and mind his own business". I could'nt stop laughing!

[Enigma]

If I see a MV which isn't correct I don't nag the owner. I might ask him "why", and mostly there is a logical answer.

 

My WC 21 has 2 different wings, both WW2 and 1/2 ton Dodge but 1 not original from the factory.

Original as in WW2, YES. Original as from the factory, NO.

[Larry Hayward]

I've decided to sick with originality when painting my Lightweight Land Rover -

by painting it like a squaddie would have done - in a hurry and straight over the old colour, not rubbing it down or removing old coats of paint!

 

Thats how I used to do it when I was in the TA many years ago!