WW1 Thornycroft restoration

[GeePig]

Roy,

You have referred to the ASC at St Omer manufacturing parts for Thornycroft that was an improvement over the factory items. Can these items be identified as such by casting marks or similar?

I have come across the odd rear axle casting that has slight changes to the norm, and now you have me questioning these pieces.

Thanks

Doug

 

Doug, what kind of changes have you seen?

 

On the other hand, I would not be surprised if the factory were making changes or, indeed, refurbishing their own old stock to make it suitable for current production. In the past I have even seen development parts remachined to current spec to make them suitable for production.

[Roy Larkin]

Doug,

 

The ASC at St Omer (and Rouen and Paris, though I have not seen their records yet) had workshop facilities to rival any manufacturer. If a back axle casing was needed they simply made one. If gearbox internals were needed they machined the gears. If a chassis rail was damaged they made another. Thornycroft was one of the makes that were allocated to St Omer, so would certainly have had parts made at St Omer.

 

I very much doubt that parts made by the ASC would have carried any marks. Time spent marking would not have been seen a priority.

 

The records don't reveal individual makers figures, only total output though occasionally there is mention of X number of Daimler (car) back axles being manufactured. Daimler couldn't keep up with the number of back axles their cars broke. There is also little reference to modifications other than comments about the part being manufactured being modified strengthen it etc.

 

So, nothing specific but enough evidence to know that it did happen, such as the forging workshop needing expanding with more forges to meet demand and more furnaces required for melting scrap for use in manufacturing.

 

As an example

 

Output for September 1917:

 

Complete overhaul:

Tractors - 2

Lorries - 37

Cars - 87

Motorcycles - 134

 

Garage repair:

Tractors - 1

Cars - 7

 

Hoods recovered - 8

New spare parts made - 7309

Crankshafts reground for outside units - 74

Ball bearings repaired - 948

Daimler rear axles repaired and issued to outside units - 49 (The ASC hardened the Daimler gears in Daimler axles to try to improve the failure rate).

Average daily strength of the company - 1130.

[Roy Larkin]

Roy,

 

I have come across the odd rear axle casting that has slight changes to the norm, and now you have me questioning these pieces.

Thanks

Doug

 

On 21 September 1915 John Thornycroft arrived at St Omer (he appears to have questioned the War Office repeat orders for back axles which the War Office weren't happy about and was summoned to France to see for himself how many Thornycrofts had broken axles). Thornycroft were told not to supply any more complete lorries until the back axle problem had been resolved and replacement axles supplied. It is not inconceivable that axles were unofficially modified by St Omer or individual companies to keep lorries working as much as possible. They could possibly be ad hoc modifications as temporary repairs that then stood the test of time.

 

Thornycroft weren't the only makers to question the War Office about the need for spares, Vauxhall, Daimler and Austin were also summoned at various times to see that their vehicles were not as reliable as they claimed. To be fair, conditions on the Western Front were nothing like what the vehicles were designed for.

[GeePig]

This is very interesting about St. Omer, puts the whole situation about the use of the trucks in a new light!

 

I suppose there is a chance that they marked things that they made, at least the more time consuming parts, I mean, it is the military we are talking about. It would be nice to find something that could be tied definitively to one of these workshops, though.

 

If the modified parts were better than the original parts, then there is a chance that an example of something surviving even though such a small percentage of components exist today.

[nz2]

Roy, Your library is again a great wealth of information.

The small changes I have noticed between various rear axle housings for J model Thornycroft, I took as being changes in development and casting patterns over the years from the Basingstoke factory. Roy's comments have lead a new twist to this line of inquiry. Some axle housings have differing dates and numbers cast on them, others have none. Others have slight changes in shape. While I have some photos of this detail more images will be needed.

Doug

[Great War truck]

A visit to our “Stores Department” was made to recover the Steering Box so that it could be prepared for disassembly – this means a liberal coating of Plus Gas over several days or weeks ahead on all of the fastenings to try to loosen them.

You will see from the pictures that it is not exactly in pristine condition and that it will require some work. We were fortunate enough to find this still on the chassis recovered from the Salisbury Pain Shepherd’s Hut and covered in the note on page 2 of this thread. We understand that the original fully working “J” was the Farm lorry and that after use in its original form, the chassis was then used as the basis of a Shepherd’s Hut for the farm. The engine, gearbox and diff were removed at that time before conversion but the steering was left in it. Again, we understand that the Steering Wheel was also actually also there until a short time before we found the “hut”, and that the steering wheel was required for another restoration and was sawn off from the column, just below its attachment point. Never the less, we count ourselves very fortunate to have an original steering box! The steering wheel will not be a problem and Steve has the pattern for this on his “list to do” for two to be ultimately cast in aluminium as friends want a similar wheel for their lorry, too!

 

 

 

 

These two pictures show the cast in part number before and after a quick initial wire brushing – the number does coincide with that in the Parts Book!

 

 

[Great War truck]

The starting handle was taken from Devon to Leicester over the weekend so that the hand grip core could be tightly pressed into the vertical part of the handle and for the steel locking retainer for the brass tube on the core also to be pressed in. Sufficient of the core is left proud at each end after pressing to be riveted over. These four pictures, taken back in Devon on return, show each end of the hand grip core after the parts had been pressed together – one of each end before being riveted over with the other two showing that part of the job when completed after the riveting.

The opportunity whilst it was in Leicester was taken to pass a slitting saw through the top part of the handle to make the locking/tightening nut and bolt operative. A later picture shows this.

 

 

 

 

 

The first picture in this sequence shows the top of the handle after the slot has been cut in it. Other pictures show the handle after a first coat of primer – and really that is it – apart from final painting. Another job done!

 

 

 

 

 

[Enigma]

Reading about workshops and markings on parts I wonder...would it be a nice idea for restorers to stamp a personal marking logo or such in the parts you make?

[Ian L]

Reading about workshops and markings on parts I wonder...would it be a nice idea for restorers to stamp a personal marking logo or such in the parts you make?

 

Could also rename it a 'Gosling' no not a good idea in my opinion

[Minesweeper]

I think that I am quite content to leave the bits unmarked - though years ago when we first had the Gearbox, the lid on it had been smashed. Steve made a pattern then for a new one to be cast and I seem to remember that he faithfully duplicated the original markings on that which were cast in! I shall have to have another look at it!

 

Tony

[Richard Farrant]

Hi Tim and Steve,

Just received a link from a friend out here in Australia on Thornycroft parts, not sure if they are for your model. Pity I did not know last week as I was at the location of them.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=321091358042&ssPageName=ADME:B:EF:AU:1123

 

regards,

Richard

[Great War truck]

Thanks Richard

 

That would be great if it was just down the road, but for what is there it is too much aggravation trying to get it back. I am sure one of our early truck friends in that neck of the woods might be interested?

 

Tim

[Old Bill]

Hi Richard.

 

Many thanks for the tip-off. It is certainly the remains of a J-type with M4 petrol engine. If it were in this country, I would quickly pick them up. However, There is nothing there we don't have so we will let them go and hope that they find a good home.

 

It just goes to show that there is still stuff out there, even a hundred years later!

 

Thanks again,

 

Steve

[Redherring]

It appears the Thornycroft parts didn't sell. I'll see if we can't rescue the parts. Cheers. Robert

[Minesweeper]

It appears the Thornycroft parts didn't sell. I'll see if we can't rescue the parts. Cheers. Robert

Good luck with that - it will be a great shame if they went to the Scrappies! Let us know how you get on!

 

Tony

[Richard Farrant]

It appears the Thornycroft parts didn't sell. I'll see if we can't rescue the parts. Cheers. Robert

 

Robert,

I know who the seller is so if you need contact details, just drop me a PM.

regards, Richard

[Chaindrive]

I have asked the seller about these parts and he has relisted them on eBay . Just working through freight issues at the moment. I hope to secure these rare parts so that they may have the opportunity to be used in a restoration rather than scrap steel for China

Dale

[Great War truck]

Steve has done few more odds and ends. He has turned up these bolts, a pinch bolt for the magneto coupling and the gland locking screw for the water pump.

 

 

 

[Great War truck]

The Thornycroft, like other lorries of the period, has no dipstick. It does have a level tap and an ‘indicator’ in the shape of a float with a piece of aluminium tube attached which moves up and down in a bronze guide. To remove ours, Steve cut the tube inside the crank case and this has to be replaced. The float was given a good soaking in paraffin before brushing off the muck. The tube had corroded into the bronze guide but simply knocked out after judicious application of heat.

 

 

 

 

[Great War truck]

After cleaning up the first guide, Steve found it to be cracked almost right through.

 

 

Fortunately, we have two so he started on the second. This cleaned up OK but had a good dent in it which made it harder to extract the tube. A bit of hammer work on a steel rod successfully beat the dent out.

 

 

[Great War truck]

During the tube extraction process, the sealing cap was melted off. Steve made a replacement by simply soldering a piece of brass back on the end and then dressing it off with a file.

 

 

 

 

 

Finally, a quick search of Ebay found a supplier of aluminium tube. Steve cut it to length and then weighed it to make sure it would float in the right position. He drilled some cross-holes in it to secure the float and there is another item ready to assemble back into the engine when the time comes. Incidentally, the cross hole in the top of the tube allows a piece of wire to be put through to hold the assembly in place whilst the sump is fitted. The lower stop is part of the sump plug.

 

 

 

 

[Minesweeper]

It appears the Thornycroft parts didn't sell. I'll see if we can't rescue the parts. Cheers. Robert

 

I see that the bits sold - were you the successful bidder, Robert?

 

Tony

[Great War truck]

As it was a family get together in Devon over Easter, it was a chance for the three of us to spend some more time on the “Thorny”. Steve particularly wanted to use the big lathe, there, to complete some work on his patterns for the new piston castings and also some other residual jobs on both “Thorny” and on the Dennis. It was also an opportunity to get the Steering Box stripped down so that we could see exactly what was inside and what would need to be done to it – and in the hope that there were no nasty surprises lurking there!

The first thing removed was the “Adjusting Plug at the bottom of the steering gear case”. This came off without too much trouble to reveal an oily interior, leaving us with the hope that it would be like that throughout.

We then wanted to take off the hanging lever at the bottom of the Steering Box – but this proved to be very tight and very firmly attached. The big propane burner was put on the nut as heat often loosens things like this – and after it had cooled the split pin was punched out. A big socket spanner and much heaving did the trick – the nut was loosened and the hanging lever was knocked off.

 

 

 

 

 

The hanging lever certainly shows signs of its age and neglect – the ball joint is “finished” and will have to be replaced but the rest of it is recoverable.

 

 

 

 

The first of these two pictures show the Bracket for the Steering gear which bolts to the chassis – all again completely recoverable. The second picture shows the inner steering tube and its bottom end piece on removal. We do not have an outer fixed steering tube – presumably that was removed years ago when the original lorry was stripped down so that its chassis could be used as the basis of the Shepherd’s Van as it would not have been needed.

 

 

[Great War truck]

The first two of these four pictures show the body of the steering box after its appendages had been removed. The remaining two show the bottom of the inner steering tube with the end piece very firmly attached.

 

 

 

 

 

After some more severe heat on the steering tube – there was no danger of cracking the cast iron at this stage with the two bits “stucked together” – and after a bit of a beating. they came apart.

It was at this stage, we began to realise the the worm was bent as it was very apparent that the shaft part it was sticking out of its case at an angle – and not truly. Again, as far as we know, the whole steering column was left sticking out of the floor of the Shepherd’s Hut unprotected, so we guess that it could easily have been knocked or leaned on over the years to distort it like this. We continued to try to get the box apart and had to replace the drop arm and the adjusting plug to be able to “lean” on it to try to get it to move.

 

 

 

[Richard Farrant]

While on my recent travels, I was given a 2013 calender issued by the Dept. of Veteran Affairs (Australian Government). The theme is a Century of Casualty Care, and I have just seen a photo taken on the Menin Road during WW1, showing a good view of what appears to be a Thornycroft J in the ditch. The photo is very clear and lorry look quite new. Below is a snap form my mobile, will try and scan when I can.