WW1 Thornycroft restoration

[Old Bill]

 

Never had a silver soldered stressed joint come apart?

 

Gordon

 

A bit of a story there and you were right! I'll sort some more photos out tomorrow.

 

Steve

[GeePig]

Never had a welded joint come apart? :shocked:

 

Silver solder and brazing, when done right, ensure that the stress is spread over the whole joint and not just round the edge, as occurs with welding. Imagine gluing to pairs of blocks together - one pair with a lower strength adhesive spread over the whole mating surfaces and the other pair with a higher strength adhesive applied only around the edge. Which will be stronger?

 

Secondly, welding involves higher temperatures, which then effects the structure of the metal in those areas local to the weld, generally weakening them unless you carry out some kind of post-weld heat treatment.

 

Thirdly, if you fill the crevices with solder or braze then you can reduce the risk of water and oxygen creeping in.

 

Of course, if you keep dropping the handle on the ground, then there is a risk that a joint will eventually spring open.

 

Ahh... I miss brazing and silver soldering...

[fesm_ndt]

Never had a welded joint come apart? :shocked:

 

Silver solder and brazing, when done right, ensure that the stress is spread over the whole joint and not just round the edge, as occurs with welding. Imagine gluing to pairs of blocks together - one pair with a lower strength adhesive spread over the whole mating surfaces and the other pair with a higher strength adhesive applied only around the edge. Which will be stronger?

 

Secondly, welding involves higher temperatures, which then effects the structure of the metal in those areas local to the weld, generally weakening them unless you carry out some kind of post-weld heat treatment.

 

Thirdly, if you fill the crevices with solder or braze then you can reduce the risk of water and oxygen creeping in.

 

Of course, if you keep dropping the handle on the ground, then there is a risk that a joint will eventually spring open.

 

Ahh... I miss brazing and silver soldering...

 

I would think our master craftsmen here are used to what they are used to. Also it most likely fits with the vehicle period as arc processes were developed during the second war.

 

I could never argue that a brazing technique was stronger than an arc or friction process as for every problem listed there are solutions. Interestingly enough sil brazing was still being used for high pressure piping in submarines up until early 60's. I always remember that as it cost the lives of 129 men

[Asciidv]

Was all of this fabrication silver soldered? I thought that this picture shows traces of conventional welding of the main boss to the handle plate?

 

Anyone who has "chewed" through a lump of steel with a small diameter milling cutter will admire Tony's perseverence in milling a nice perfect fit square hole in the end of the handle.

 

Are the piston patterns underway?

 

Best wishes,

 

Barry.

 

[Old Bill]

Hi Barry.

 

Yes, you are quite right, the boss is welded on. The silver solder holds only the washers at the bottom end and the pinch bolt boss.

 

We use silver solder because with a bit of care, it gives a first-rate joint and we can do it. Neither Tim nor Father welds and mine is absolutely awful so it is always a last resort. I have been taking lessons recently but my trainer and I have reached the conclusion that my vision is the problem. I hadn't realised that most welders can see some of the job when they are doing it whereas I can see only a bright dot and have to guess where the joint should be. Marginally better than doing it with my eyes shut but not much!

 

I have had a failure, as predicted by Gordon, and I will get Tim to post some photos later.

 

Cheers!

 

Steve

[Gordon_M]

Waiting to hear

 

You would join it differently if it was welded, of course. You'd grind a V butt on the disc, locate it, and then just fill it with weld, so effectively you would have as much weld surface joint as the soldering.

 

I can see it does a wonderful joint, but there has to be a limit somewhere where you say 'sorry, but we need to weld that' like a major structural joint, for example.

 

I addition a good weld will hold to the melting point of the parent metal - and I'd guess that silver solder gives up at a much lower temperature, especially when stressed.

[ruxy]

Never had a welded joint come apart? :shocked:

 

Silver solder and brazing, when done right, ensure that the stress is spread over the whole joint and not just round the edge, as occurs with welding. Imagine gluing to pairs of blocks together - one pair with a lower strength adhesive spread over the whole mating surfaces and the other pair with a higher strength adhesive applied only around the edge. Which will be stronger?

 

Secondly, welding involves higher temperatures, which then effects the structure of the metal in those areas local to the weld, generally weakening them unless you carry out some kind of post-weld heat treatment.

 

Thirdly, if you fill the crevices with solder or braze then you can reduce the risk of water and oxygen creeping in.

 

Of course, if you keep dropping the handle on the ground, then there is a risk that a joint will eventually spring open.

 

Ahh... I miss brazing and silver soldering...

 

=============

 

Such as those joints could be preped for a 100% TIG procedure - you would never get a fracture within the weld area. If you don't like the look of a neat weld bead - then cake-ice a bit extra on & hand fettle it up to look as if cast.

[rog8811]

I have to say that silver soldering is my favorite method of joining metals, it is just so satisfying when the flux turns liquid, the metal gets the perfect glow then just a touch of the SS rod and the join line changes to gold......

 

Nice work you are doing, I always look forward to updates here...

[GeePig]

... it is just so satisfying when the flux turns liquid, the metal gets the perfect glow then just a touch of the SS rod and the join line changes to gold......

 

 

Lovely description! :-)

 

One question I have about the project is whether it still feels like Steve's original lorry, or does it feel more like a new lorry in its own right? When I used to 're-engineer' motorcycles from bits and scraps they always felt like a new thing made of old things. If that makes sense.

[Great War truck]

Readers may remember from page 63 that Steve made up the actuating arms for the governor using our favourite silver soldering process. These were fitted where it became obvious that he had his sums wrong and had made them too tall!

 

 

He had forgotten to take account of the bosses on each side of the yoke being 5/16” below centre line so the camshaft could not be fitted. He took them home and adjusted them by cutting them down and making new bosses. He kept the bosses as parts of the same bar so that they would remain in line during the soldering process after which he cut the bar and dressed them off.

 

 

 

[Great War truck]

This time the shaft fitted nicely, the gear teeth were aligned and the centre bearing was pushed into place.

 

 

 

 

[Great War truck]

The centre bearing locking bolt was screwed in and the new governor springs were mounted.

 

 

 

Then the governor butterfly actuating arm was fitted. As Gordon predicted, it split on the joint as the cotter was driven home. A bit of a rethink is required here!

 

 

[Great War truck]

We then tried turning the engine over to make sure that all was well. Unfortunately, it made a strange clicking noise and the governor arm ‘kicked’ so the camshaft had to be removed again to investigate. Witness marks on the bob weight arms eventually pointed us to the taper pins which secured the arms to the shaft. These were clipping the arms and had bent the taper pins. The taper pins were cut down and reinstalled, and the cam shaft was replaced. All was well and we now have two correctly timed camshafts where they should be. Only the actuator arm remains to be repaired or remade.

 

 

 

[Old Bill]

One question I have about the project is whether it still feels like Steve's original lorry, or does it feel more like a new lorry in its own right? When I used to 're-engineer' motorcycles from bits and scraps they always felt like a new thing made of old things. If that makes sense.

 

That's a good one! We do not have enough bits of any single lorry to give it a provenance so, like the Dennis, it will be a Thornycroft J type lorry assembled from original Thornycroft bits or new parts made as close to the original specification as possible. Hopefully, it will drive and perform like a freshly overhauled lorry. It won't be a replica but, strictly speaking, it won't be a restoration either. Perhaps 'further original' might be a better description!

 

Steve

[Great War truck]

Does that mean that it does not qualify for an age related licence plate then?

[Old Bill]

Does that mean that it does not qualify for an age related licence plate then?

 

Now there's an interesting question! I think it should qualify as although it has no individual provenance, it will be made of mostly 100 year old parts and it will be as if the ASC had just out-shopped it after a heavy general overhaul. This particular set of parts did not come out of Basingstoke all together as part of the same machine but they are the right parts for it.

 

This is very similar to the B-type bus, 'Old Bill', owned by the IWM. It was built by the London General Omnibus Co. for its own use. They had so many of them that they set up a maintenance depot to look after them. When buses arrived, they were stripped right down and the parts sent to various shops for overhaul. At the end of the line, buses were reassembled using overhauled parts as they arrived. B-type buses arrived and B-type buses left the works but the chances of a chassis leaving with the body, engine and gearbox it had arrived with were slight. Is Old Bill original? Certainly. Is it the vehicle which was assembled in 1912? Certainly not! Admittedly, this vehicle has now been assembled for 80 years which the Thorny has not.

 

Mr Larkin will undoubtably have something to say on this subject!

 

Cheers!

 

Steve

[fesm_ndt]

Readers may remember from page 63 that Steve made up the actuating arms for the governor using our favourite silver soldering process. These were fitted where it became obvious that he had his sums wrong and had made them too tall!

 

He had forgotten to take account of the bosses on each side of the yoke being 5/16” below centre line so the camshaft could not be fitted. He took them home and adjusted them by cutting them down and making new bosses. He kept the bosses as parts of the same bar so that they would remain in line during the soldering process after which he cut the bar and dressed them off.

 

Poor Steve he got a hammering tonight................. I'd blame it all on the silver solder

 

Ok not trying to digress this great thread, I think we all stick our two bob's worth in as we enjoy the thread so much :bow:

[Gordon_M]

Actually the DVLA has a cunning plan for the originality measurements.

 

You get so many points for an original chassis, and so many for an original engine, and so on. There is a total above which you have an 'original' vehicle and below which you don't.

 

I think it is set up that way so that if you took Dennis, dumped the original chassis for whatever reason, made a new chassis, and rebuilt all the original parts on the new chassis you could still qualify as having an 'original' vehicle.

 

I'm sure for 'originality' purposes you could substitute a different engine number or whatever and it would still get the points, as long as the replacement was contemporary with the original.

 

Surely the brand new galvanised chassis for old Land Rovers would be an illustration of this - all original except for the chassis, but allowed to retain the original plate.

[Tony B]

https://www.dvla.gov.uk/dvla/forms/~/media/pdf/leaflets/inf26.ashx

[Roy Larkin]

 

 

 

Mr Larkin will undoubtably have something to say on this subject!

 

Cheers!

 

Steve

 

Thanks Steve,

 

B-Type buses: In my view, the only B-Type buses older than 12 months were those shipped to France and which lasted more than 12 months before being overhauled. Those in London had to be tested every 12 months to be licenced which meant a complete overhaul. OK, not 100% complete as the number plates would have been re-used. Whether they ever went back onto the same vehicle is another matter. Therefore a B-type, or any other London bus, built in 1912 and surviving to 1920 was actually 8 different buses, despite carrying the same registration number.

 

As to the Thorny, or any other ASC lorry. Those repatriated in 1919/20 were not the same vehicle that went out. Possibly those sent out in late 1918 survived without change but the others were extensively overhauled, repaired and modified. Not even the bare chassis could be guaranteed original as siderails and crossmembers were replaced.

Could they even be called Thornycrofts? Maybe not as the ASC manufactured many of the parts themselves, such as chassis rails, axle casing, gears, bodies, etc etc.

 

So, to clarify the position for DVLA:

 

We have a Thornycroft of which part of the chassis was built at Basingstoke with some replacement parts from Basingstoke and also some ASC manufactured parts from St Omer. It has a Thornycroft engine but probably has a crankshaft made by the ASC and the back axle has at least a fifty/fifty mix of Thornycroft and ASC parts in an ASC casing. Most of it is Thornycroft design but some is ASC design never approved by Thornycroft but said to be an improvement so implemented. We don't have any idea what the registration number is as it was never registered but exported and then reimported at a later unknown date. We do have a number stamped on it which dates it as 1916, although other numbers date it variously as 1914 and 1918.

 

The completed lorry, which looks entirely authentic is actually as 33% Steve, 33% Thornycroft and 33% ASC. If we had a 3-sided coin, we could toss it and be more definite as to what we would like it registered as, but we don't, so can it be a Thornycroft please?

 

OK, very tongue in cheek, but any talk about originality simply takes away from the fantastic work done by restorers.

[Gordon_M]

I think that sums it up neatly.

 

Almost every part is to the original early 1900's design, though some materials and manufacturing processes have been improved or substituted. Not seeing a problem :angel:

[nz2]

Roy, you have stated that well.

Further to the point of rebuilds, Leyland rebuilt all the WD lorries they could obtain at the end of the war. Some were discarded as being non repairable, stripped, with the parts being used on other chassis.

 

I understand much the same occurred in France during the war with damaged lorries of all makes being stripped and reused as parts to keep others in operation.

 

As for the Thornycroft in question, the major parts are all Thornycroft, assembled back together as per factory specifications, just like a refurnishing workshop at the end of the war.

As a suggestion place a sign at the workshop calling yourselves a "Repair Depot for ASC ".

The use of the letters ASC is seen to protect the Army Supply Corps name. Those initials could refer to any group of words.

As for chassis and engine sequences being in factory order, I have located a Thornycroft in NZ where according to the records has a chassis number allocated as to be an export to NZ, while the engine in that chassis was meant to be dispatched in a different chassis and exported to India.

Life is never simple!

Doug

[Roy Larkin]

Further to the point of rebuilds, Leyland rebuilt all the WD lorries they could obtain at the end of the war. Some were discarded as being non repairable, stripped, with the parts being used on other chassis.

 

 

Life is never simple!

Doug

 

Indeed, life is never simple and the perception that Leyland bought all the Leyland WD lorries they could after the war isn't quite right. My view is that Leyland suffered (in modern parlance) from a 'senior moment' when buying back lorries from the War Office.

 

What Leyland bought was the 'dump' at St Omer. This was the RAF base and Leyland paid £500,000 for the vehicles and parts etc. It would appear that Leyland paid substantially too much and caught quite a considerable cold over the deal. The reason they paid so much was to outbid Lever Brothers bid of £450,000 for the dump. Quite why a soap manufacturer would want to buy the dump is a mystery, to me at any rate.

 

For their £500,000, Leyland got 1231 lorries plus miscellaneous spares etc. The problem was they were all in France and therefore incurred an additional cost to repatriate them. The War Office quoted £15.00 per lorry against their own cost of £9.4.2d, which appears to have been turned down until the commercial rate of £75.00 per lorry was obtained and Leyland accepted the War Office quote. The cost to Leyland therefore increased by a further £18,465 plus the cost of transport from port of arrival to Leyland's premises, probably Ham near Richmond.

 

Leyland ended up with stock that was far too expensive to be commercially viable.

 

Other makers bought their own vehicles back via sales at Slough, which proved far more viable.

 

As an aside, questions were asked in Parliament about Colonel Spurrier (War Office Sales Director) being the brother of 2 of Leyland's directors and his part in the sale.

[Roy Larkin]

Now there's an interesting question! I think it should qualify as although it has no individual provenance

 

Steve

 

2013 - 3 lads in a garage in Devon doing what they can in their spare time. Starting with a wreck, salvaging and refurbishing some parts from same wreck or other wrecks, buying new parts where available, manufacturing new parts when no other option and ending up with a complete and serviceable lorry.

 

1918 - 1,000+ men in a big workshop doing what they can full time. Starting with hundreds of wrecks, salvaging and refurbishing some parts from same wreck or other wrecks, buying new parts where available, manufacturing new parts when no other option and ending up with 10 lorries, 80 motor cars and 100+ motorcycles plus other assorted machinery each week.

 

The only difference I can see is scale of operation. As I don't see the logic of the Devon lads employing over 1,000 helpers unless they can guarantee the work and I have a suspicion that some killjoy or other will complain about commandeering the local town and banishing the occupants to make way for billets for the extra staff, I think the scale part of the authenticity question should be put to one side, at least for now.

 

In all other aspects, what the Devon lads will end up with is identical to what the ASC ended up with in both the end result and method of getting there.

[nz2]

Roy,

You have referred to the ASC at St Omer manufacturing parts for Thornycroft that was an improvement over the factory items. Can these items be identified as such by casting marks or similar?

I have come across the odd rear axle casting that has slight changes to the norm, and now you have me questioning these pieces.

Thanks

Doug