This is a story you are going to tell your grandchildren....

[Joris]

... and mightily bored they'll be!

 

We all know this famous phrase from A Bridge to Far during the briefing for operation Market Garden. The briefing took place in Leopoldsburg across the road from the railway station in a small cinema. When I visited a few years ago it was demolished and in the process of being rebuilt but here it was.

 

A Sherman tank stands across the road as a memorial.

[woa2]

That's not just a Sherman tank, but a British Firefly.

[Runflat]

I hate to say this, but in this day and age if that machine gun is real I'm surprised nobody's walked off with it before now.

[No Signals]

I hate to say this, but in this day and age if that machine gun is real I'm surprised nobody's walked off with it before now.

 

Good point - I'm off with the saw tonight!

[Joris]

Perhaps because only decent chaps live there?

[Snapper]

What a shame the building didn't survive. But that's progress! Good call, Joris. Cheers mate.

[Bazz]

Can somebody answer me this query, I always thought that due to the larger gun thus larger ammo in the Firefly compared to a normal Sherman the hull gunner was ommitted, yet the above pic shows the hull gun fitted.

Did the conversion omit the mounting for the hull gun or was the mounting left but not used.

 

Barry.

[woa2]

Can somebody answer me this query, I always thought that due to the larger gun thus larger ammo in the Firefly compared to a normal Sherman the hull gunner was ommitted, yet the above pic shows the hull gun fitted.

Did the conversion omit the mounting for the hull gun or was the mounting left but not used.

 

Barry.

 

 

Yes, just checked that and you are right. (Source='Sherman Firefly' by David Fletcher) Is this a post-war modification? Dutch Army, perhaps?

[Adrian Barrell]

It's a Firefly turret sat on a standard M4A4 (Sherman V) hull.

[AlienFTM]

Bazz you are absolutely right. Adrian, that was going to be my guess.

 

I also have this little bell ringing in my head that the British did not go in for the morale-booster ... I mean commander's Five-Oh ... preferring to stay inside the turret and avoid being shot with half the body exposed. But I stand (half out of the turret) to be corrected on that one.

[Adrian Barrell]

If you have a .50 cal on the cupola, it's always in the way. It fouls the hatches, makes it harder getting out in a hurry and generally is a pain in the neck.

 

There are plenty of photos showing them in use on British Shermans but I don't believe it was that widespread, an extra .30 being just as useful and much easier to handle.

[AlienFTM]

If you have a .50 cal on the cupola, it's always in the way. It fouls the hatches, makes it harder getting out in a hurry and generally is a pain in the neck.

 

There are plenty of photos showing them in use on British Shermans but I don't believe it was that widespread, an extra .30 being just as useful and much easier to handle.

 

I agree. TBH I have been surprised to find the Five-Oh getting a new lease of life in the sandpits. I thought they'd all been laid to rest with due dignity when Chieftain's RMG was replaced by Barr & Stroud. Personally I'd rather have half a dozen .30" rounds in the air than one or two .50". Each is going to render the target hors de combat, but there are more of them.

 

"Targets will scream when hit."

[Adrian Barrell]

I agree. TBH I have been surprised to find the Five-Oh getting a new lease of life in the sandpits. I thought they'd all been laid to rest with due dignity when Chieftain's RMG was replaced by Barr & Stroud. Personally I'd rather have half a dozen .30" rounds in the air than one or two .50". Each is going to render the target hors de combat, but there are more of them.

 

"Targets will scream when hit."

 

I've noticed that on the news. I seem to remember hearing the .50 had a bit of a resurgence in the Falklands and British Army stocks were replenished as a result.

[AlienFTM]

Coincidentally I just found found this Firefly pic on a site run by a 15/19H Old Comrade:

 

http://www.hussar.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/images/ShermanFirefly-VC-RSG.jpg

 

It shows the blanked-off hull MG nicely.

[mcspool]

Is this a post-war modification? Dutch Army, perhaps?

 

Belgian Army, actually. Most likely this is a conversion using a standard M4A4 hull with a Firefly turret for display purposes.

But, there is a slight chance this conversion was carried out earlier. At some point in time the Belgian Army had over 200 Sherman Fireflies, including ones they reworked themselves. Rumour has it some of them were actually converted from standard M4A4´s, retaining the hull MG.

But to be safe, I´d stick to the first option.

 

- Hanno

- http://web.inter.nl.net/users/spoelstra/g104/b.htm

[mcspool]

If you have a .50 cal on the cupola, it's always in the way. It fouls the hatches, makes it harder getting out in a hurry and generally is a pain in the neck.

 

There are plenty of photos showing them in use on British Shermans but I don't believe it was that widespread, an extra .30 being just as useful and much easier to handle.

 

Arnold Faragher, 1CACR Kangaroo veteran RIP, told me one of the .50-cal MGs on their Priest Kangaroos got stuck in some tree branches in Normandy and hurt a crew member when it swung round. They found them too much of a burden, so they ditched them and got .30-cal MGs instead.

 

- Hanno

[mcspool]

Arnold Faragher, 1CACR Kangaroo veteran RIP, told me one of the .50-cal MGs on their Priest Kangaroos got stuck in some tree branches in Normandy and hurt a crew member when it swung round. They found them too much of a burden, so they ditched them and got .30-cal MGs instead.

It was worse!

 

Gunner Hutchins was not hurt but accidentally killed on September 3, 1944, "when the Browning on his Kangaroo caught in the branches of a tree and accidentally discharged".

 

Source: 1CACR War Diary on http://www.canadiankangaroos.ca

Edited February 5, 2009 by mcspool

[Maurice]

This M4A4 has still the 75mm ammo bins inside , and turret is only held on by few bolts .so just done as monument , the other one in Hechtel (now in storage) is an M4 75mm Hull with a grafted on firefly turret , Escape hatch is gone , from were you can see the 75mm ammo bins as well . Firefly had escape hatch fully welded up. this hull still has all the tool brackets on the rear engine compartment plate , so possibly ex US army hull , because british usually relocated the spanner and sledgehammer , they only left cranking handle there , and added a first aid box holder onthe back.

[AlienFTM]

Talking of "grafted-on turrets".

 

I just finished a history of a heavy PzJgAbt (PanzerJaegerAbteilung - independent tank hunter battalion) - I think 653 or 523 or something - the book's at home.

 

Basically they were the batallion that crewed the Ferdinands at Kursk and (renamed Elefant) in Italy, before getting Jagdtiger in late 1944. I had been drawn to the book by a picture of one of only two ever built Tiger (P) gun tanks (as opposed to the Ferdinand / Elefant tank destroyer) converted to command tanks.

 

But what really surprised me was a picture which I looked at and thought "Yeah, Panther. And ...?" Then I read the blurb. It was a Bergepanther recovery vehicle (it only took two to pull an Elefant as opposed to three SdKfz18 half-tracks). But the crew had welded a late-model PzKpfw 4 turret (with long 75 and turret skirt) on, exactly where the Panther turret ought to have been. I was surprised how right it looked.

 

Gave the maintenance crews some self-protection. Didn't matter that the turret was welded - it was a PzJgAbt after all.

 

---ooo0ooo---

 

Also interesting, and related to a Sherman thread on here, was the OrBat of one company of the PzJgAbt on 31 March 1945. From memory, something like:

 

1 * Tiger 2

1 * Jagdtiger

2 * long-barreled PzKpfw4 (sic)

2 * PzKpfw3 with 5cm L60 gun

3 * Hummel

1 * Wirbelwind

1 * PzKpfw4 with three-barreled anti-aircraft MG (cannot get my head around that one)

 

and two Shermans.

 

What a motley collection!