GS Wagon

[DRoth137]

I'm researching the details of a MK VII GS Wagon (hopefully leading to an accurate reproduction). Can anyone help with drawings or details?

I'll be off to the Studebaker archives in a few months, but maybe there might be some better info here.

Thanks!

[Great War truck]

One of the HMVf members has a 1915 GS wagon. Did you see his post on the subject?

 

http://hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/showthread.php?t=9085

[fv1609]

There was an article on Wagons GS in Windscreen Summer 2008 contained no drawings of Mk VII but some details of evolution from earlier models. I have a drawing of Mk VII I'll post later. There is a Studebaker Ambulance Wagon at:

 

http://www.ams-museum.org.uk/

 

Wagon GS Mk X at:

 

http://www3.hants.gov.uk/museum/aldershot-museum/aldershot-collections.htm

Edited January 3, 2009 by fv1609

[mazungumagic]

There is a restored Australian GS Wagon (Mk X and serial # 683) at the Army Museum here in Perth, but I think there maybe some differnces between it and the British counterpart.

 

I've also got a copy of the British Army's 1934 production of the Handbook for Carpenters, Wheelwrights and Smiths, which contains some line drawings of these wagons. (Pics attached)

 

The handbook contains a fascinating amount of proabably forgotten detail on working with wood and iron/steel.

 

Is the Mk VII very different ?

 

 

Jack

[Runflat]

You may want to get hold of a copy of "Army Service Corps. Training Pt. 3 1915 Horse Transport" - this has a side drawing of the Mk VII and compares and contrasts to earlier and later Mks. Reproductions were available from these people (see about 4/5ths of the way down): http://www.military-naval-history.co.uk/pages/artillery_&_fortifications.htm

[fv1609]

The British & Australian models look very similar. As far as the difference in Mks go very similar as Mk X evolved from the various changes through the previous models from which Mk VII was the starting point for this style of layout evaluated from the purely experimental Mk V & Mk VI as the result of the 1884 War Office Committee on transport vehicles. The most obvious differences are:

 

Length

Mk VII 9' 5"

Mk X 9' 1 3/4"

 

Weight

Mk VII 16cwt 2qrs 6lb

Mk X 15cwt 2qrs 17lb

 

Tyre width

Mk VII 2"

Mk X 2 1/2"

 

[Runflat]

That's the same illustration Clive, although looks like it's from a different publication.

 

DRoth: For general reading, "Discovering Horse Drawn Transport of the British Army" is also available again (first published 1977) - not bad for its modest price: http://www.shirebooks.co.uk/categories/military-history.php

[fv1609]

That's the same illustration Clive, although looks like it's from a different publication.

 

It comes from ASC Training Part 1 1909. Not described as "Horse Transport" though in those days :-\

 

I'm not too impressed with the Shire book. If you read it you are hoodwinked into believing that Wagons Ambulance Mk I & Mk II are illustrated as they appear intermingled with the text on those. In fact they are front & rear views of the Mk V. The other ambulance illustrations are titled, but curiously these first two are not. Their positioning at the front intermingled with Mk I & Mk II text away from the Mk V section & untitled would make a cynical person feel their position there is perhaps misleading.

Edited January 3, 2009 by fv1609

[Runflat]

In fact they are front & rear views of the Mk V.

 

Mk VI ambulance, surely?

[fv1609]

Mk VI ambulance, surely?

 

Yes sorry Mk VI you are quite right.

[Runflat]

That's a relief, I thought I was going mad.

 

I look forward to your next article in Windscreen. The last was clearly well researched.

[fv1609]

OK Thanks. I was so peeved about the Shire "mislead" & the dyslexia surfaced. I was on the point of correcting my stupidity when you popped up. So I couldn't really blank out my error.

 

What is really annoying is that when I was covering the Mk VII in Windscreen, I totally forgot to include the drawing. Anyway when that article appears on HMVF it will include a touched up & labelled version of that.

 

Anytime now Jack should be putting up the first animal article. Then there is the horsey one, then the Wagons GS & then it was meant to be Wagons Ambulance. Unfortunately research for that side tracked me into other aspects of administration & chaos. So the article in the coming Windscreen is "Early Battlefield Care" although this largely covers some of the admin & maladmin around the Crimea.

 

I hope readers will find some rather alarming information that the commissions & committees of enquiry in the 40 years afterwards did not result in any significant changes. They were already in place! The fact that they didn't work very well is another matter. But most commentators at the time & virtually all historians ever since have formed their views from the spin of astute politicians of the time who were putting forward ideas that already were in place. Nothing changes:-\

[FWDTEXAS]

There is an older version on display next to the FWD I restored at the museum in the Pancho Villa State Park in New Mexico. It is in original condition and has never been restored. When I get there later on I shall post a picture of it.

[FWDTEXAS]

PS> This wagon is also called Escort wagon and its cargo box was used in March 1916 as a cargo box on FWD's who were delivered to the Expeditionary Force under Geeneral Pershing as a bare chassis. They were also used as trailers behind FWD's to supply the force chasing Pancho Villa. The task of mounting of these boxses fell to the mechanics of the 1Aero force (planes) in Columbus New Mexico.

[Great War truck]

Thanks for that. I had heard them called escort wagons before and was wondering if these weer the same things.

 

Interesting stuff

 

Tim (too)

[FWDTEXAS]

In 1778 during the war of independence the army used a wagon, the Conestoga developed by Dutch and German ettlers on the eastern sea board. Throughout the civil war's four Corps organised the wagons in trains of 21 units with 150 mules, 2 horses and 20 men. In the 70's the wagon was replaced by the 4 horse or 4 mule wagon and in the 80's acquiered the the name of Army Escort Wagon. It was some 6" shorter and 2-3" narrower than the 6 mule wagon, the sides were straight with the familiar paneling and the driver on the inside on a elliptical spring supported seat, the toolbox and feed trough were retained. Tree aditional spring mounted seats could be installed to make it a troop carrier. The first trucks used by gen. Pershing in Mexico used the bed of the wagon and the whole wagon as a trailer. It still provided transport when mud stoped the truck from moving. It was still carried on the Quatermaster Inventory in 1944. just in case maybe? Many of the wagon shops later became truck manufacturers; Studebaker, John Deere. The wagon on display at Pancho Villa State Park in New Mexico is a Studebaker and could carry over 3000 lb

Edited January 16, 2009 by FWDTEXAS

[Tony B]

Found these.

[Tony B]

and this

[FWDTEXAS]

Here are some pictures of the GS or escort wagons used in the pursuite of Pancho Villa in 1916-17

[Tony B]

Nigel's one.

[FWDTEXAS]

Owned by R.L. in Columbus New Mexico

[FWDTEXAS]

This is the Studebaker in original condition at the Pancho Villa State park New Mexico

[hbtoday98]

We are planning to rebuild a MK XI ? GS wagon from remanants available to us. We are interested in any source for working drawings to reconstruct the timber and to mount the components. Unfortunately there is not any examples to go and take any direct measurements from. Our research so far has come from the D J Smith book Discovering Horse Drawn Transport of the British Army and, Len Trawin on Early British Quick Firing Artillery.

[hbtoday98]

The British & Australian models look very similar. As far as the difference in Mks go very similar as Mk X evolved from the various changes through the previous models from which Mk VII was the starting point for this style of layout evaluated from the purely experimental Mk V & Mk VI as the result of the 1884 War Office Committee on transport vehicles. The most obvious differences are:

 

Length

Mk VII 9' 5"

Mk X 9' 1 3/4"

 

Weight

Mk VII 16cwt 2qrs 6lb

Mk X 15cwt 2qrs 17lb

 

Tyre width

Mk VII 2"

Mk X 2 1/2"

 

[/quote

 

The drawing shows a lenght of 10' 8" and the Mk VIII drawing is the same, does the lenght given in this post apply to the deck from the tool box back ?

regards Mal

[fv1609]

Mal yes it is to the back of the tool box. I have an original drawing here in a 1909 ASC manual. With a magnifier I can see the length arrowhead goes to the back of the box & is point to point with another arrow head. This is labelled 19" & meets that perpendicular dropped from the top of the box.

 

I'll scan it for you.