Cammo Paint questions

[MiketheBike]

Guys,

 

I am about to paint my 109FFR and would like some advice and honest opinion (like you wouldn't be honest!)

 

Do I go plain nato green, or do I go cammo?

The black paintwork is generally good, but the lighter colour is naff.

 

I would ideally like to go down the black/nato green route, but is it hard to do properly? Generally, are the transitions from black to green sharp, or do they blend (I have seen both, but not sure what is strictly correct). Does that depend on whether its sprayed of brushed/rollered?

As it stands, is there too much black (looking at others', there does appear to be too much).

 

Piccy of it as it stands right now.

Thanks,

 

Mick

[sirhc]

Mick,

 

You can do the pattern with either a brush or spray. If you brush it you'll get hard transitions. I spray everything, and find it quicker and easier. The easiest way is to buy a tin of nato green, spray/roller/brush that on first, then get some cans of matt black spray paint from Halfords to do the black. You should stick to about 1/3 black and 2/3 green, but there is no hard and fast rule. My Sabre was more like 2/3 black when I got it straight from the MoD. I guess the answer is, paint it how you like, there is no authentic look.

 

Chris

[MiketheBike]

Thanks Chris...for some stupid reason I was going to paint the nato green around the black already on there, but what you say sounds much easier and quicker.

[fv1609]

Mick

Chris is correct it should be 2/3 green & 1/3 black. So you have too much black & it is too intricate. The pattern should be large & bold. Small patterns are pointless & things as small as trailers were not meant to be painted. Although I have seen trailers apparently painted in service where the instructions for painting were not followed, like in the case of the in service paint job Chris has described.

 

Black should be used to break up a corners of the vehicle. Initially a vehicle would be painted in green & black added afterwards. But it was permissible to touch up areas without having to do a complete paint job in green. So you could leave some of your black & simply add green areas.

 

Patterns should differ from vehicle to vehicle. I always found it difficult to plan out the pattern in my mind & it was very easy to hesitate as you are doing it in case any of the pattern might be interpreted as 'anatomical' in some people's minds.

 

The star finish would be to stencil near the bottom of the vehicle "IRR DATE" I think that is the date when the IRR paint was applied, but it could be the expected expiry date of the IRR properties of the paint. When genuine paint first appeared on the surplus market one could sometimes get a good price from a dealer on the basis that the paint had 'expired'. But this was only the reliability of the IRR pigment the paint itself was perfectly ok to use.

[MiketheBike]

Thanks Clive...It does confirm what I thought about the black though...too much at the moment.

 

How would you remove paint from the plastic grill (its badly flaking, and really daubed on badly)? Is the plastic grill correct (its a 1978)? I am worried about using paint stripper in case it melts the plastic.

 

Mick

[sirhc]

Mick,

The plastic grill is correct, have you tried looking on ebay for a cheap replacement? Whatever you do don't put a bright silver one on, or it will look even worse!

Chris

[fv1609]

How would you remove paint from the plastic grill (its badly flaking, and really daubed on badly)? Is the plastic grill correct (its a 1978)? I am worried about using paint stripper in case it melts the plastic. Mick

 

I think a plastic grill is correct. If the paint is flaking that badly, take the grill off & bash gently & it will twist a little bit as well aiding the flaking. Paint stripper can attack plastic. I once had a rear window that was blacked out. I put paint stripper on to find it was not glass but perspex & it went rough & opaque.

 

I would still use the stripper for the stubborn bits but watch over the process as paint stripper seems to patchy in its activity on old paint. But even if there is slight damage to the plastic, it will give a rougher surface to key the paint in. Any stubborn bits of paint just leave & paint over it.

 

You are not aiming for a factory finish as it would not have left the factory in IRR camo. So it would be done at unit level & the quality of paintwork would not be too good anyway. I know we like to make a decent job of things, but you're just restoring it to its as service condition. So you have some latitude.

[AlienFTM]

What everybody else said. We received our first issue of IRR paint in Paderborn about 1981 IIRC (IIRC is an unfortunate term when used in a sentence using IRR, eh?).

 

I remember having to get the CVR(T)s spotlessly clean then sanding down the old paint and having something in the region of one spray gun per squadron. That application of paint was beautiful. On no other occasion did I ever see paint applied with a spray gun. ISTR our brand new, delivery mileage only Sultans arrived in 1979 already brush-painted black over the green base - but I could be wrong.

 

In the German winter, start of 1981, I got my first spell in a long time the turret of a Scorpion, Commanding 22C. It was the only time I ever saw:

1. Winter whitewash cam paint;

2. Winter cam net.

 

The whitewash was meant to cover 1/2 of the green base, leaving the vehicle green / black / white in equal proportions. ISTR the white cam net amounted to a couple of square feet per vehicle, about enough to break up the shape of the Scorpion mantlet.

[Bazz]

Alien,

 

I remember it well.

 

Bazz.

[Tony B]

Thanks Chris...for some stupid reason I was going to paint the nato green around the black already on there, but what you say sounds much easier and quicker.

 

Bear in mind most of them were painted by those in the S*** sometimes using yard brushes. I find a roller the easiest way, a load of cheap foam rollers from poundstretchers. The edges blend but shouldnt be to perfect. If you use H*** matt black you will miss the main point of NATO. When I was working security I would make a point about relying on gadgets by parking my NATO Landy in the car park, then asking any newbies to count the cars at night using IR cameras. Very few picked up the Landy.

[fv1609]

When I was working security I would make a point about relying on gadgets by parking my NATO Landy in the car park, then asking any newbies to count the cars at night using IR cameras. Very few picked up the Landy.

 

That's odd Tony because infra-red reflective paint will do just that i.e. reflect infra-red so it should have looked brighter being observed with a night observation device :???

[Tony B]

No if you think of the prupose of camo paint that would be like a huge sign sayin 'drop bomb here'. When viewed under IR cameras the 'normal' cars do shine. NATO are matt.

[fv1609]

No if you think of the prupose of camo paint that would be like a huge sign sayin 'drop bomb here'.

 

Materiel Regulations for the Army. Volume 2. Vehicles & Technical Equipment. Pamphlet No.3. Painting of Army vehicles, aircraft & equipment. Annex B.

 

[Tony B]

Unless we are talking baout Flourescence? The IR paint definitley does not glow. modern car paints contain chemicals similar to wshing up powder, that makes them floureses to shine.

[MiketheBike]

I thought (probably incorrectly) that the IRR paint reflected heat (ie sun etc) so would have a lower heat signature....

[fv1609]

Foliage reflects light ie you can see it. But it also reflects IR energy either from the moon (which is reflected from the sun) or an IR beam used for surveilance.

 

Equipment that is painted a colour to blend in with the foliage, with normal green paint eg the old Olive Drab that predated NATO Green would appear as a black hole when observed with a NOD (Night Observation Device) be that the old IR viewers or an image intensifier (passive ie no beam needed)

 

So paint to reflect IR energy was devised with a pigment to reflect IR energy to the same degree as the foliage. Of course foliage is not uniform there will be irregularities & gaps etc. So black IRR paint is used with less IRR pigment.

The 2/3 Green & 1/3 black is intended to mimick "North West European woodland" eg Germany.

 

It is virtually impossible to legally obtain genuine IRR NATO Green paint. There are companies who supply NATO Green paint which make no claims for including IRR pigment This would add to the cost for a property few would benefit from. So most restored vehicles have no special IRR component to their paint.

 

Some years ago genuine IRR NATO Green was available. But why was it there? Because it had expired. Not the paint, but the IRR pigment!

 

So I suspect Tony's Land Rover was difficult to see with a NOD was that the IRR pigment was not in the paint or it had become inactive. Given as he points out the shininess of modern cars, you can see how his Land Rover was difficult to see.

 

The definitive way to test IRR paint for its usefulness, is to use one of these:

 

[Tony B]

The stuff on the Landy was genuine. Next time we are all playing together we 'll have to try some experiments.

[fv1609]

The stuff on the Landy was genuine.

 

I wonder how old it was though?

[Tony B]

Good question, it was from stores being cleared out. Aquired (Legally) all sorts of useful things, best was 200 war time dated feild dressings that had been shoved in the loft of one building.

[gritineye]

Someone I know once told me he was stopped by a mobile speed trap officer and asked what illegal device he had fitted to jam the vascar (or whatever it was), when all he had done was to apply a fresh coat of IRR green!

 

In your collective opinions, was this chap in the real world or cloud cuckoo land?

[fv1609]

it was from stores being cleared out.

 

Lucky man! I have recuring dreams like that. But my ideal storeroom is full of EMERs & Humber parts!

 

The reason I asked about age of paint is that its specification demands at least one years shelf life for the IRR component. Although it can last a few more years if stored at the correct temperature. Once its on the vehicle deteriation is more rapid. So unless it is very new paint & fairly recently applied the chances are it is only going to perform properly for a short while.

[fv1609]

Someone I know once told me he was stopped by a mobile speed trap officer and asked what illegal device he had fitted to jam the vascar (or whatever it was), when all he had done was to apply a fresh coat of IRR green!

 

In your collective opinions, was this chap in the real world or cloud cuckoo land?

 

Over the years I have heard of people who knew a mate who make such claims about radar traps. I have never spoken to someone first hand.

 

Firstly it is infra-red reflecting paint, so if it had some extension of properties into the microwave spectrum then it would only enhance reflection & make detection even more effective.

 

IRR paint is not as some suppose a cloaking device to make the equipment disappear. It is just trying to make the object reflect IR energy in the same way as the surrounding foliage.

 

If the paint had some IR or microwave cloaking/absorbing effect, they needn't have developped stealth bombers. They could just paint aircraft in IRR paint!

[gritineye]

Thanks for that fv1620, this chap is not known as 'Liquid Brain' for nothing, which suits him well!

Edited June 6, 2008 by gritineye

[AlienFTM]

Interesting just this morning I once again received the following apocryphal tale:

 

Two British traffic patrol officers from North Berwick, east of Edinburgh, were involved in an unusual incident while checking for speeding motorists on the A1 Great North Road.

 

One of the officers (who are not named) used a hand-held radar device to check the speed of a vehicle approaching over the crest of a hill and was surprised when the speed was recorded at over 300mph. The machine then stopped and the officers were not able to reset it.

 

The radar had in fact locked on to a NATO Tornado fighter jet over the North Sea, which was engaged in a low-flying exercise over the Borders district.

 

Back at Police headquarters the chief constable fired off a stiff complaint to the RAF Liaison Office.

 

Back came the reply in true laconic RAF style. "Thank you for your message, which allows us to complete the file on this incident. You may be interested to know that the tactical computer in the Tornado had automatically locked on to your hostile radar equipment and sent a jamming signal back to it. Furthermore the Sidewinder air-to-ground missiles aboard the fully-armed aircraft had also locked onto the target. Fortunately the Dutch pilot flying the Tornado responded to the missile status alert intelligently and was able to override the automatic protection system before the missile was launched.

 

A great story - why let the facts get in the way? Only the latitude of the location on the A1 varies from telling to telling. It's full of more holes than you could shake a stick at (no doubt including the occasional typo during my manual transcription from a JPEG - though thank goodness for Firefox's spell checker).

[Tony B]

Over the years I have heard of people who knew a mate who make such claims about radar traps. I have never spoken to someone first hand.

 

Firstly it is infra-red reflecting paint, so if it had some extension of properties into the microwave spectrum then it would only enhance reflection & make detection even more effective.

 

IRR paint is not as some suppose a cloaking device to make the equipment disappear. It is just trying to make the object reflect IR energy in the same way as the surrounding foliage.

 

If the paint had some IR or microwave cloaking/absorbing effect, they needn't have developped stealth bombers. They could just paint aircraft in IRR paint!

Radar guns are calibrated by a tuning fork. the best way to confuse them is to vibrate the bonnet or other large panel at harmonic frequency., or dirve a bus, they shake so much radar doesent stand a chance.

[abn deuce]

Not long ago they explored this and a number of other such stories dealing with ways to TRY and dodge traffic radars and cameras on Myth Busters all the stories proved to be false and devices failed.