Norton h 18 Spanish Civil War.

[juan carlos rodriguez]

Hello,  I am about to recover one of the old H 18 used in the Spanish civil war. Do you know if there is any record or file where, through the frame number, I could identify this motorcycle and its trajectory in Spain? Thank you. (A researcher or scholar of the subject would also serve).
hola. Me dispongo a recuperar una de las viejas H 18 usadas en la guerra civil Española.  ¿ saben si hay algún registro o archivo donde a traves del numero de bastidor pudiera identificar esta motocicleta y su trayectoria en España?  gracias. ( un investigador o estudioso del tema también serviría ). 

[ltwtbarmy]

Morning!

Is this what you’re looking for? https://www.nortonownersclub.org/records

[juan carlos rodriguez]

not quite. I am not so interested in the factory registration as in its registration in Spain to find out its registration number. The idea is to re-register it with its original Spanish registration.
I thank you too.

no exactamente. no me interesa tanto el registro de fabrica como su registro en España para averiguar su numero de matricula. La idea es volver a matricularla con su matricula original española. 
Se lo agradezco igualmente.

[welbike]

I was told that the Spanish got their Nortons from the French importers, I have emailed Rob about it, he knows about these things, you can also check out his website: 

Norton wd 16h and wd big4, British military motorcycles of world war 2 (wdnorton.nl)

He just wrote about them!

Grtz,

Lex

[welbike]

Here a plate of the (prewar) Norton importers in Paris.

Grtz,

Lex

[juan carlos rodriguez]

Efectivamente, también había leído que estas motos fueron importadas a través de Francia, en un número aproximado de 300, de las cuales unas 40 con sidecar. Fueron utilizados por el bando republicano. Tenían una escuela de pilotos en Valencia y otra de mecánica para su reparación. Y sé poco más sobre ellos.

 

I have also written to him. He mentions "Spanish army records" about which I have been unable to find information.

yo tambien le he escrito. El menciona "registros del ejercito español" de so cuales  yo he sido incapaz de encontrar informacion.

Edited December 8, 2022 by juan carlos rodriguez

[rewdco]

On July 18th 1936, the Civil War erupts in Spain. At that time Spain was a republic, with a socialist – communist government (the “republicans”). The “conservatives” (or “nationalists”) under the leadership of general Franco started this Civil War with a military coup, in an attempt to take over the leadership of the country. They were helped by the Axis powers (Nazi Germany’s Condor Legion and Fascist Italy), while the republicans got some help from the Soviets. The governments of France, England and other democratic European powers looked the other way… The Republican Army was not well prepared and suddenly needed all kinds of mechanized transport. Most (if not all) of the British motorcycles for the Republican Army were “smuggled” into Spain, often through France.

 

- Birmingham dealer "Baker, Fay & Baker” ordered 50 Royal Enfields of which at least one turned up in Spain. Probably all 50 (25 model J2’s plus 25 model G2 motorcycles) went to Spain. The 25 model J2’s were despatched from the factory on September 5th 1936, and the 25 G2’s were despatched on September 9th 1936. 
- Also in September 1936 there are two orders for 'Goss, London' - who bought 124 MSS, 25 KSS and 50 KTS models - and for 'Bassovitch, London' who bought 25 MSS and 21 KSS models. These purchasers' names do not appear elsewhere in the Velocette ledgers and seem not to have previously bought anything, or bought any other models. Some bikes from this batch have been discovered in Spain, so they probably all went there.
- There were 89 Nortons (with Vokes Air Cleaner) to Baker, Fay, Baker in September 1936. Some bikes from this batch have been discovered in Spain...
- Pierre Psalty (the Paris Royal Enfield importer) “smuggled” 1000 Model J Royal Enfields from France to the Republican Army in Spain from May to September 1937. 
- During the same period (summer 1937) Norton delivered 500 Model 18s to Lucien Psalty in Paris (the Norton importer). Final destination: Spain.
- There was also a batch of 80 identical Royal Enfield model H machines (to the same standard civilian specification “with electric horn”) sent to "Depot / London" on the 23rd July 1937. One of these motorcycles was recently discovered in Spain, so it is reasonable to assume that this batch was also destined for the Republican Army.
- The mysterious “Captain Ball” (no destination address given in most cases, which is very unusual, but in a few cases the destination is “Paris” or sometimes “London”) ordered 760 BSA M22’s and 40 BSA M23’s between May 1937 and February 1938. I have found a document in Spain that proves that the Captain Ball bikes went to Spain as well.
- “Massardy” (address “Paris”) orders 43 BSA M22’s in November - December 1937. Destination “Spain”…??? I’m quite sure… “Massardy" never appeared neither before nor after this batch… Have googled this name but couldn’t find anything useful...
- And the French BSA importer (Cox, from Paris of course…) also ordered 200 M22’s / M23’s between September 1936 and January 1938. These may have included a few bikes for the French market, but I’m convinced that he also knew the way to Spain…

 

I have a 1937 Royal Enfield Model J, sold to Pierre Psalty in May 1937. My bike was discovered in Spain, with a Madrid registration number. Through the Madrid police I have found all the owners during its stay in Spain.

 

Please send us some pictures, plus frame / engine number. This will help us to find out more about the history of your Norton!

 

Jan
 

[Mk3iain]

5 minutes ago, rewdco said:

On July 18th 1936, the Civil War erupts in Spain. At that time Spain was a republic, with a socialist – communist government (the “republicans”). The “conservatives” (or “nationalists”) under the leadership of general Franco started this Civil War with a military coup, in an attempt to take over the leadership of the country. They were helped by the Axis powers (Nazi Germany’s Condor Legion and Fascist Italy), while the republicans got some help from the Soviets. The governments of France, England and other democratic European powers looked the other way… The Republican Army was not well prepared and suddenly needed all kinds of mechanized transport. Most (if not all) of the British motorcycles for the Republican Army were “smuggled” into Spain, often through France.

 

- Birmingham dealer "Baker, Fay & Baker” ordered 50 Royal Enfields of which at least one turned up in Spain. Probably all 50 (25 model J2’s plus 25 model G2 motorcycles) went to Spain. The 25 model J2’s were despatched from the factory on September 5th 1936, and the 25 G2’s were despatched on September 9th 1936. 
- Also in September 1936 there are two orders for 'Goss, London' - who bought 124 MSS, 25 KSS and 50 KTS models - and for 'Bassovitch, London' who bought 25 MSS and 21 KSS models. These purchasers' names do not appear elsewhere in the Velocette ledgers and seem not to have previously bought anything, or bought any other models. Some bikes from this batch have been discovered in Spain, so they probably all went there.
- There were 89 Nortons (with Vokes Air Cleaner) to Baker, Fay, Baker in September 1936. Some bikes from this batch have been discovered in Spain...
- Pierre Psalty (the Paris Royal Enfield importer) “smuggled” 1000 Model J Royal Enfields from France to the Republican Army in Spain from May to September 1937. 
- During the same period (summer 1937) Norton delivered 500 Model 18s to Lucien Psalty in Paris (the Norton importer). Final destination: Spain.
- There was also a batch of 80 identical Royal Enfield model H machines (to the same standard civilian specification “with electric horn”) sent to "Depot / London" on the 23rd July 1937. One of these motorcycles was recently discovered in Spain, so it is reasonable to assume that this batch was also destined for the Republican Army.
- The mysterious “Captain Ball” (no destination address given in most cases, which is very unusual, but in a few cases the destination is “Paris” or sometimes “London”) ordered 760 BSA M22’s and 40 BSA M23’s between May 1937 and February 1938. I have found a document in Spain that proves that the Captain Ball bikes went to Spain as well.
- “Massardy” (address “Paris”) orders 43 BSA M22’s in November - December 1937. Destination “Spain”…??? I’m quite sure… “Massardy" never appeared neither before nor after this batch… Have googled this name but couldn’t find anything useful...
- And the French BSA importer (Cox, from Paris of course…) also ordered 200 M22’s / M23’s between September 1936 and January 1938. These may have included a few bikes for the French market, but I’m convinced that he also knew the way to Spain…

 

I have a 1937 Royal Enfield Model J, sold to Pierre Psalty in May 1937. My bike was discovered in Spain, with a Madrid registration number. Through the Madrid police I have found all the owners during its stay in Spain.

 

Please send us some pictures, plus frame / engine number. This will help us to find out more about the history of your Norton!

 

Jan
 

 

[rewdco]

Please don't trust the information about the Republican Army bikes on the Spanish websites. They all copy each other, but none of them ever did some serious research. Most of what they say is absolute nonsense...

Jan

 

Edited December 8, 2022 by rewdco

[Mk3iain]

You mean the government of Britain surely! 😉     Part of Great Britain since 1707.

[rewdco]

5 minutes ago, Mk3iain said:

You mean the government of Britain surely! 😉     Part of Great Britain since 1707.

Sorry, should have been "The governments of France, Great Britain and other democratic European powers looked the other way… "

🇬🇧=🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿+🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿+🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿  😊

[rewdco]

Hello Juan Carlos,
I was wondering, was this information useful?

Hola Juan Carlos,
Me preguntaba, ¿fue útil esta información?

Jan

[juan carlos rodriguez]

Of course it is useful to me, thank you very much, very interesting.

[juan carlos rodriguez]

frame number:  ¿ 26233--26293???

[welbike]

Casting numbers, not frame numbers.......

Cheers,

Lex

[juan carlos rodriguez]

engine motor:81409 VA 79X100

engine cylinder: 75899

[juan carlos rodriguez]

número cabeza: ¿ E6692B ?

[juan carlos rodriguez]

2 minutes ago, welbike said:

Números de fundición, no números de cuadro .......

Salud,

Lex

¿¿??Isn't this the chassis number?

[welbike]

No, try to find the frame number, left hand side, on the front tank mounting lug.

Lex

Edited December 8, 2022 by welbike
spelling

[juan carlos rodriguez]

here??

[welbike]

Like this, on the left had side, under the petrol tank.

Lex

[juan carlos rodriguez]

I have written down this numbering on a piece of paper 25/30 years ago when I bought this motorcycle, from the day I bought it, but today I have not been able to find that frame numbering. I'm not sure this number is true, I'll have to check.

TEngo anotado en un papel esta numeracion desde hace 25/30 años que compre esta moto, del dia que la compre, pero hoy no he sido capaz de encontrar esa numeracion de bastidor. No estoy seguro  de que este numero sea  cierto, tendre que comprobarlo.:

Nº motor: 81409   -  VA – 79 .( por) 100

 Nº cilindro: 75899

Nº bastidor: 85 268.-

 

The rest of the numbers match, so there is a good chance that the VIN is mine, but I couldn't find it today...

el resto de numeros coincide, asi pues hay muchas posibilidades de que el numero de bastidor sea el mio, pero  hoy no lo encontre...

[juan carlos rodriguez]

in what zone??

[rewdco]

Engine 81409 was delivered to Lucien Psalty on November 3rd 1937.

Jan

[79x100]

..and the cylinder 75899 from the engine of the same number went to Psalty on 10/5/ 1937

The frame number should be on the left hand front fuel tank mount. Something like this one.

Edited December 8, 2022 by 79x100
Photo Added