Is a WW2 lorry a commercial vehicle?

[Dorset HQ]

Hello

Bit if a strange one this so bear with me! We are in the process of buying a new home in Somerset and part of the land out the back of our potential new property has been sold and a house is being built, we knew this already.

The problem is the owner/builder is trying to get an  injunction to stop us crossing his land to get to the back of our property, the original sales agreement clearly said we have right to access.

he's saying the vehicle is a commercial vehicle and is breaking the terms of the agreement?

My truck is a 1941 Austin K2 GS lorry, 80yrs old in 2021, does 15mpg and around 45mph flat out, how on earth can it be a commercial vehicle!!

just wondering if anyone has experienced anything like this with their military machines or have any advice?

Solicitors are involved but sadly they don't really know much about classic vehicles

Thanks for any advice in advance

Regards Colin

Edited December 19, 2020 by Dorset HQ

[utt61]

It wouldn't be a commercial vehicle per se, only if you were using it for commerce. It would probably be considered to be a Private Heavy Goods Vehicle in the eyes of the law..

The outcome and the legal situation would depend entirely on the wording of whatever agreement he is trying to enforce, I would think.

[Dorset HQ]

31 minutes ago, utt61 said:

It wouldn't be a commercial vehicle per se, only if you were using it for commerce. It would probably be considered to be a Private Heavy Goods Vehicle in the eyes of the law..

The outcome and the legal situation would depend entirely on the wording of whatever agreement he is trying to enforce, I would think.

Thank you☺the log book clearly says Historical vehicle so I guess I'll have to let the solicitors fight it out?

[Surveyor]

You may need to ask for the party wall agreement if one was given, if not available find out why

[Dorset HQ]

22 minutes ago, Surveyor said:

You may need to ask for the party wall agreement if one was given, if not available find out why

Hello

What is a party wall agreement? Never heard of that term?

Colin

[Surveyor]

Sorry part of my business, if work in England and Wales is within, think 3m of an adjoining wall or boundary an agreement needs to be in place before work starts, there used to be an explanatory memoire on the Web, sorry working.by phone on here

[Noel7]

I'm no expert, but I don't think that a party wall agreement is actually altogether relevant. The argument  is about access. When your seller [I presume it is the same person as is selling to you?] sold land to the builder, that sale agreement should have included a full specification of what rights of access the owner of the remaining land had over the land then sold. These rights would then be binding on all subsequent owners of both areas of land. The important question is did that sale agreement provide for access by motor vehicles, and, if so, what sort? If, just for example, it restricted access to private cars, it won't matter whether your lorry is a commercial vehicle or not, you would not have the right of access with it. [Don't expect the builder to know the details, as he is not likely to be a legal expert!] Your solicitors should be able to explain before you buy the property what your rights of access actually would be if you do buy; if they can't, keep asking until they do. As utt61 implied, the discussion won't go anywhere until you know what the legal situation is.

Edited December 19, 2020 by Noel7
Removal of ambiguity

[utt61]

2 hours ago, Dorset HQ said:

Thank you☺the log book clearly says Historical vehicle so I guess I'll have to let the solicitors fight it out?

"Historic Vehicle" is a taxation class, not a vehicle type. 

[Surveyor]

1 hour ago, Noel7 said:

I'm no expert, but I don't think that a party wall agreement is actually altogether relevant. The argument  is about access. When your seller [I presume it is the same person as is selling to you?] sold land to the builder, that sale agreement should have included a full specification of what rights of access the owner of the remaining land had over the land then sold. These rights would then be binding on all subsequent owners of both areas of land. The important question is did that sale agreement provide for access by motor vehicles, and, if so, what sort? If, just for example, it restricted access to private cars, it won't matter whether your lorry is a commercial vehicle or not, you would not have the right of access with it. [Don't expect the builder to know the details, as he is not likely to be a legal expert!] Your solicitors should be able to explain before you buy the property what your rights of access actually would be if you do buy; if they can't, keep asking until they do. As utt61 implied, the discussion won't go anywhere until you know what the legal situation is.

Not an expert but know a bit it depends on how it's drafted, the big problem is that despite the legal requirements to have an agreement in place there are none. 

I have seen a party wall agreement which did cover maintaining access, I do know a good party wall surveyor, but not me, I'm a building control chartered surveyor 

[Dorset HQ]

1 hour ago, utt61 said:

"Historic Vehicle" is a taxation class, not a vehicle type. 

Now you mention it it's obvious😬 I didn't twig on that duh!😁

Thank you

[Dorset HQ]

1 hour ago, Noel7 said:

I'm no expert, but I don't think that a party wall agreement is actually altogether relevant. The argument  is about access. When your seller [I presume it is the same person as is selling to you?] sold land to the builder, that sale agreement should have included a full specification of what rights of access the owner of the remaining land had over the land then sold. These rights would then be binding on all subsequent owners of both areas of land. The important question is did that sale agreement provide for access by motor vehicles, and, if so, what sort? If, just for example, it restricted access to private cars, it won't matter whether your lorry is a commercial vehicle or not, you would not have the right of access with it. [Don't expect the builder to know the details, as he is not likely to be a legal expert!] Your solicitors should be able to explain before you buy the property what your rights of access actually would be if you do buy; if they can't, keep asking until they do. As utt61 implied, the discussion won't go anywhere until you know what the legal situation is.

I'm really glad I asked as there is obviously some very knowledgeable folk on here😀 I'm sure it just says domestic vehicles?

[JohnC]

It’s not just your MV. I suggest you also think well into the future about who might need unhindered motor access to your property for any reason. Postman, couriers, builders, utility suppliers, emergency services, private visitors who happen to drive a van ........

[Surveyor]

4 minutes ago, JohnC said:

It’s not just your MV. I suggest you also think well into the future about who might need unhindered motor access to your property for any reason. Postman, couriers, builders, utility suppliers, emergency services, private visitors who happen to drive a van ........

The access may be in the deads re the land, just thought as it's a new building go on the council planning portal and see what the planning conditions are 

[andym]

You may have fun with the council planning people.  I tried and failed to obtain planning permission for a building to store my MVs because no-one outside our "bubble" understands MVs, and the local council considers anything connected with them to be commercial.

Andy

[oats and barley]

These covenants were initially targeting the likes of ice cream traders or sea food stalls keeping their vans at home it is not really a council issue . It is something developers in their wisdom apply but yours as a hobby is not commercial or hire and reward and should not apply been there before with my mk3 militant recovery on the drive

[naaficook]

It might help, if you refer to the lorries as a "Recreational Vehicle" -or even better " a Campervan".
They are also large, taken-out out a few times per year and NON-commercial.

 

Edited December 27, 2020 by naaficook

[Dorset HQ]

1 hour ago, naaficook said:

It might help, if you refer to the lorries as a "Recreational Vehicle" -or even better " a Campervan".
They are also large, taken-out out a few times per year and NON-commercial.

 

Thank you, that sounds like a good idea 😁

[jenkinov]

Hi .my property is subject to a covenant precluding commercial vehicles .when i purchased my jeep circa 18 years ago I was immediately asked if my vehicle was a commercial vehicle .. As a member of the military vehicle trust i immediately responded that it was a historic military vehicle ... That closed the topic .

i would suggest if not a member you join the mvt and seek their support .

regards

Jenkinov

[jenkinov]

Hi .my property is subject to a covenant precluding commercial vehicles .when i purchased my jeep circa 18 years ago I was immediately asked if my vehicle was a commercial vehicle .. As a member of the military vehicle trust i immediately responded that it was a historic military vehicle ... That closed the topic .

i would suggest if not a member you join the mvt and seek their support .

regards

Jenkinov

[jenkinov]

I should add commercial vehicles by definition carry goods or people for reward. Military vehicles do neither and beneficially have their own defenition . If you can demonstrate the vehicles provenance it should allow your solicitor to quickly close the topic

Jenkinov

 

[Dorset HQ]

12 hours ago, jenkinov said:

Hi .my property is subject to a covenant precluding commercial vehicles .when i purchased my jeep circa 18 years ago I was immediately asked if my vehicle was a commercial vehicle .. As a member of the military vehicle trust i immediately responded that it was a historic military vehicle ... That closed the topic .

i would suggest if not a member you join the mvt and seek their support .

regards

Jenkinov

Thank you I think I will join them🙂