BenHawkins Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Another one for identification (and to find a new home if possible). This one had been the base of a lions cage. The current owner was told it was a 1906 Dennis lorry but I am certain it is not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony H Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 The seven spoke wheels must relate to some particular manufacturer? Vehicle was originally purchased following WWI and reduced in length for its use as the undercarriage of the lion's cage [part of which was still attached when I purchased it over 30 years ago!] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redherring Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 The small collection of pieces in the bottom photo immediately suggest to me International. However, the wheels and hubs look Berna'ish. I've never seen an International before with wheels like this. Undecided. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redherring Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Berliet is another possibility with the seven-spoked wheels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeePig Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 I assume that is a rear live axle I can see rather than being chain driven? I do not recognise the spring hangers, or those round bars going across the chassis, and cannot quite see what they do. Finally - are their any markings on the wheel hubs? Nice find, and reminds me of some old trailers or truck chassis I saw abandoned at the Warren in Ashford some 30 years ago. trevor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BenHawkins Posted March 25, 2014 Author Share Posted March 25, 2014 In the top photo you can just about make out the void in the middle of the rear axle where the drive would go. The rear spring hangers are quite distinctive as are the front dumb irons which curve back on themselves. One of the tubes between the chassis rails appears to operate the brakes, the other two appear to brace the chassis rails apart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony B Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Looks like the Lion has got at it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nz2 Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Note the front axle curves forward, not downward. Photo no. 3 shows a front spring indicating this position on the axle. The king pins are lying horizontal in the image further supporting the front curved axle. The front axle has a hexagonal shaped bearing cap. As for a manufacturers name to it, some more research is needed. Doug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynx42 Rick Cove Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 That is a very light chassis. I would suggest that it is in the under two ton range. Interesting though. Regards Rick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racer Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 I am with Redherring on this, I go for Berliet as well. Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtskull Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 I can't hazard a guess yet as to what this is, but I'm pretty sure it is not a Berliet, although the wheels bear a very close resemblance. Weren't Berliet trucks of this era chain drive? Looking very closely at the front axle, I think it is simply dropped downwards; the appearance of being curved forwards being an illusion caused by the curvature and the viewing angle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great War truck Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 (edited) With those 7 spoke wheels Berliet does look to be a likely contender. Not sure which model though. Not the CBA as that was chain drive. Something much smaller. Not as early as 1906 either as I would think that the wheels would have been wooden. Edited March 26, 2014 by Great War truck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runflat Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 Similar wheels can also be seen on Tilling-Stevens in French service but other than the tapering rear to the chassis not much else fits. I've not found a good match for Berliet either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony H Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 The US Army LIBERTY trucks WWI had seven spoke wheels......! Going to check out the hubs, watch this space. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtskull Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 (edited) With those 7 spoke wheels Berliet does look to be a likely contender. Not sure which model though. Not the CBA as that was chain drive. Something much smaller. Not as early as 1906 either as I would think that the wheels would have been wooden. If Wikipedia is to be believed, the CBA was the only model of lorry produced by Berliet during WW1 and through the 1920's, which would seem to rule out Berliet as the identity of these remains. Not directly relevant to this thread but something I came across whilst trying to solve the mystery; a Berliet Anti-Aircraft lorry in Romanian service: http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/romania/Rom-berliet.jpg Note the 8-spoke wheels! Edited March 26, 2014 by mtskull Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeePig Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 The US Army LIBERTY trucks WWI had seven spoke wheels......! Going to check out the hubs, watch this space. I noticed that as well, but I thought that US trucks had wooden wheels? I am not sure though. What makes of truck were using a diff that dropped in from the top? trevor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redherring Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 Could we have the remains of two trucks here? The photos with wheels/axles etc belonging to one - I still lean toward Berliet. While the small pile of loose front chassis members have surely (grits his teeth) got to be from a smallish International. Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynx42 Rick Cove Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 Note the front axle curves forward, not downward. Photo no. 3 shows a front spring indicating this position on the axle. The king pins are lying horizontal in the image further supporting the front curved axle. The front axle has a hexagonal shaped bearing cap. As for a manufacturers name to it, some more research is needed. Doug Optical illusion Doug. It certainly drops down NOT forward. Rick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony H Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 I agree the front end is certainly as per the smaller International truck, every hole and rivet match exactly. What can anyone tell me about these trucks please, and why the 7 spoke wheels? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeePig Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 I was wondering whether the wheels had been changed to look prettier for their purpose with a circus? Or - did someone else use the International chassis for their own purpose? trevor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nz2 Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 On looking at the photos again the curvature of the front axle is downwards. The angle of the image certainly plays tricks with the eyes! This lead took me off on a search of steam wagons where some have a curved front axle passing around a vertical boiler. No joy in locating a steamer with seven spoked wheels on solid rubber tyres. The large spring hangers for the front of the rear springs are an identifiable feature, but I can't find any photos of trucks showing such parts. Another possible is the British Berna truck, as the front spring mounts do appear similar, however the clarity of the photos I have as reference does not show the level of detail to positively say so. The Berna spoke wheel pattern is similar in shape to some examples having flat spokes while others have round spokes. Spoke numbers however are not matching to the unknown chassis. The spoke pattern is similar to that on Thornycroft model J and some Thornycroft castings were undertaken by Catton's Foundry, along with castings also for Yorkshire and Garrett steam wagons. If Catton's made the wheels for this chassis, it could have been an off the shelf casting pattern, with a minor change to the pattern to avoid upsetting the larger clients. That is if Catton's made and owned the pattern. All possible theories! Doug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony H Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 I measured the two parts of the chassis yesterday and confirm the o/a width of the rear chassis channels is 3’-0” [910mm]. The section used is 2” x 5 ½” [140mm]. The rear axle could have been top half worm drive, a la Dennis. The o/a width of the front chassis channels is only 2’-5 ½” [750mm]. The section here is 2” x 5” [130mm]. Chassis construction is pure International and matches a photograph of an early such [wooden wheeled, solid tyre] truck. Berliet lorries were generally chain drive. Both the French Berliet and American Liberty trucks had 7 spoked cast wheels. Would these have fitted other manufacturers axle stubs? or are the axles off another vehicle all together? Would the bolts be Metric/Whitworth/BSF/AF/BA? As I intend to sell these parts it would be useful to know what I really have for sale! Regarding previous use, the lion’s cage was in a static menagerie which supplied wild animals for sale between the wars, and I believe during WW2 too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andypugh Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 This might be an unpopular viewpoint, but some piles of metal really are just scrap, and that is how I would classify this collection. My Ner-a-Car is _slightly_ better, in that I have some bodywork and the right type of engine. https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/cfj87PbrK5q8NiE7Q4iVUtMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=directlink Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtskull Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 The rear axle could have been top half worm drive, a la Dennis. Chassis construction is pure International and matches a photograph of an early such [wooden wheeled, solid tyre] truck. Berliet lorries were generally chain drive. Both the French Berliet and American Liberty trucks had 7 spoked cast wheels. This is quite a conundrum, to be sure. Those front chassis members are certainly Continental but as nothing on the rear chassis matches, are most likely not associated with the rest of the remains except in that they ended up in the same pile. There are many photos of Liberty trucks on the web but, apart from having 7 spokes, the wheels don't resemble these ones. As regards Berliet, I stand to be corrected if someone comes up with evidence to the contrary but, so far as I can ascertain, the CBA was the only model of lorry that Berliet made between the outbreak of WW1 and the end of the 1920's; as it used chain drive that would seem to rule out Berliet as the origin of these remains. There are also differences in the front axle and, although Berliet CBA wheels do strongly resemble the wheels in the photo, there are differences when subjected to close examination. Sorry if this sounds rather negative; I would dearly love for someone on this forum to get to the bottom of this mystery but all good detective work begins with a process of elimination. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nz2 Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 While these parts could be viewed as a pile of rust, these do represent sections of a vehicle that appears to be rare or unusual and therefore worth storing in anticipation of being available for a future restoration. The wheels, axles and associated parts are all suitable for use. Once gone to scrap those parts are no longer available. Save storage is needed, along with identification. One day the discovery of more matching parts could give rise to another significant rebuild. I can't offer the storage as home is too far away, and we seem to pick up like pieces from within this country (NZ)of odd vehicles. Doug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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