question Arromanche beach 2014

[ww2rupert]

This really is a strange thread.

 

I just don't see the need to be on the beach - it's like wanting to park your vehicle on a grave yard. The beaches were places of death and destruction where so many young men had a violent and voracious death.

 

I know more people who work 'behind' the camera in remembering our war dead and keeping history alive. You will never find these people fighting and squabbling for a front row seat. They don't need to.

 

Why is it strange? hundreds of military vehicle owners want to be on a Normandy beach on the day to pay their respects, are they all sad? i bet you have been on the beach at some point in your life, either in a vehicle or as a normal tourist come to look, its no different.

 

Totally disagree with your comment Jack "wanting to park your vehicle on a grave yard"!? what about all those thousands of people who go on holiday and lay on the beach in the sunshine? i know you or others will say its different but it isnt, instead of parking on a grave yard remembering and honouring the dead? they are just having fun and laying in the sun not even thinking about what happened there!

 

Plus your comment about people who work behind the camera, i work in the film industry and most couldnt care less about what event went on there in the past, they just want to get the shot and move on!

 

Just want to comment on a previous remark that someone said "Its insulting to MVT members" that person obviously doesnt know about past events where my group has been mocked and insulted by MVT members in combats and "T" shirts, baseball caps and beards, then go off and sit in thier deck chairs and drink beer behind thier vehicles, now thats insulting!

[Jack]

I find it strange Colin because it is a historic military vehicle forum - whereby we discuss MV's etc and you have pretty much insulted every member of HMVF who is is a member of the MVT.

 

Yes I was on the beach in 2008 meeting some veterans of the Normandy Veterans Association. Why? Because the amazing members of HMVF raised over £10,000 for the NV Association so we could pay for and return 40 of our WWII veterans back to Normandy for the 65th.

 

What I am trying to say (badly may be) is that there are other ways to 'remember them' then just having to be on the beach. The whole length of the bridge head was a battlefield.

 

I am still at a loss as to why people think there is a divide between vehicle owners and reenactors. To me, that is miss guided and ill thoughtout. Surely, vehicle owners, reenactors, living history, authors and historians are all different ingredients but part of the same cake?!

 

I hear you with regards to some folks wearing combats and British army jumpers etc in WWII vehicles. In the bigger scheme of things - so what. These folks aren't reenactors. In fact, the majority of these folks were keeping history alive long before it became trendy - long before Saving Private Ryan and long before Band of Brothers. It's no different than overweight, middle aged men wearing a uniform of an elite soldier - they do it because they like it.

 

Does anyone honestly think that any veteran would turn their nose up at people because they aren't wearing a battle dress or the correct pair of boots? This isn't a poke at you Colin but an oppinion of mine in general but I kind of see red when I read and hear this 'respect' word being thrown about - it's as nauseating as entrepreneur or hero. We all have our own ways of remembering our war dead - just because I don't dress up or even own a vehicle doesn't mean I have no respect.

 

I am not a member of the MVT but credit where credit is due - if it wasn't for the vision of the founders of the Military Vehicle Conservation Group (Now MVT) then a lot of events in Normandy would never of happened. You wouldn't even have a chance of taking your vehicle onto the beach.

 

I will also add the many world class reenactors and living history people are members of the MVT.

Edited December 17, 2013 by Jack
Typo - more than 1!

[Adrian Barrell]

Jack, :thumbsup:

 

In the past, I think there was a degree of fun poked at the reenactors by the 'old school' mv owners, generally seeing them as 'playing at soldiers'.

 

However, you don't find that view expressed here, a Military Vehicle forum. The other side of that coin, some reenactors dismissing 'normal' MV owners as MVT in combats does frequently rear its head on the reenacting forums.

 

At the end of the day, the freedom to express our views and to enjoy our hobbies as we see fit was hard won. To belittle others by claiming the moral high ground is a little insulting to those that won that very freedom.

[ww2rupert]

I dont think iv'e insulted anyone? thats your opinion, i was talking MV's in regards how to get to the beach, plus it was in the section of general chat, so it is related! but its been twisted out of proportion by people who want to force thier opinions on whats correct!

 

You say you find it nauseating to hear about the word "respect" being thrown about, i agree with you there, but i dont believe anyone on here or in the MVT community or reenactment community went out and bought a vehicle or uniform to "respect" the veterans of any war, they bought it because they WANT ONE! the respect part usually comes later, and however you or anyone else feels about that should be kept to themselves and not forced on others.

 

I have never doubted the work of the MVT, IMPS or other organisations, so why you feel the need to mention that i dont know? i was merely pointing out how we have been treated in the past by mainly MVT members because we "dress up", IMPS have always been welcoming to reenactors!

 

I'm still waiting for your thoughts on all the thousands of holiday makers lying on Normandy beach Graves?

 

Your right in saying there is more to Normandy than the beaches, we will be there on the week before 6th June and will be visiting these places, but the whole idea of the original first question was "how to get onto the beach on the day", which thankfully a few people have managed to be very helpful with that!

 

Regards

 

Colin

[Cold_War_Collection]

Jack, :thumbsup:

 

In the past, I think there was a degree of fun poked at the reenactors by the 'old school' mv owners, generally seeing them as 'playing at soldiers'.

 

However, you don't find that view expressed here, a Military Vehicle forum. The other side of that coin, some reenactors dismissing 'normal' MV owners as MVT in combats does frequently rear its head on the reenacting forums.

 

At the end of the day, the freedom to express our views and to enjoy our hobbies as we see fit was hard won. To belittle others by claiming the moral high ground is a little insulting to those that won that very freedom.

 

Each to their own, thats how I look at it. The same unfortunate debate rages on this side of the Atlantic as well. We here at the Museum wear black coveralls or British AFV crew suits, mostly as we get dirty, and the AFV suits have the advantage of pull handles on the shoulders so someone can get you out if you can't do it yourself.

 

I wore a uniform for years for my country, and personally, have no desire to wear one of another era, but thats a personal choice, and I uphold folks freedom to do what they like. Of course, then again, my Fin and German ancestors wore uniforms that may not be all that acceptable :-),

 

...but I would like to have a Stug III like my Opa went tank hunting in! (He was a FOO, Winter War, War of Continuation, then Army Groupe Centre)

 

War touches all of us, and all are free to remember how they see fit.

[ww2rupert]

Jack, :thumbsup:

 

In the past, I think there was a degree of fun poked at the reenactors by the 'old school' mv owners, generally seeing them as 'playing at soldiers'.

 

However, you don't find that view expressed here, a Military Vehicle forum. The other side of that coin, some reenactors dismissing 'normal' MV owners as MVT in combats does frequently rear its head on the reenacting forums.

 

At the end of the day, the freedom to express our views and to enjoy our hobbies as we see fit was hard won. To belittle others by claiming the moral high ground is a little insulting to those that won that very freedom.

 

Thank you Adrian

 

I will freely admit that i do get angry with, as you say probably "old school" MVT owners, and sadly although being a military vehicle owner i do still look at MVT with the same opinion, which sadly many reenactors do as well.

These "types" are probably a minority but its difficult to change our feelings so easy when we still get the odd comments at events.

When all is said and done we are playing at soldiers, but so are the vehicle owners in a way!

No hard feelings meant to anyone and i'm sorry if people do feel insulted, wasnt my intention im just very passsionate about my reenacting and my vehicle, and get easily annoyed especially when i have spent thousands on my display and collection:blush:

 

Regards

 

Colin

[Davey089]

Well I for one thank you for the info.

I think WE should ALL think a little about what the day is about. My veiw only...but I dont think it should be about wether we can or cannot get our vehicle "on the front" or beach or even what we are wearing.After all its not a circus (is it ?) I think it should be a time to reflect on who went before to allow us to be able to go or not go as we please.

Just my thoughts, I will be there not sure where, but will be thinking of all those youngsters who did not survive that day....very humbling.

 

Yes I agree .I have been going to Normandy for the last 30yrs taking my father back for the Anniversaries up until the day he passed away .On these visits he would place a wreath at Hermanville and wooden cross's on his "pals" who didn't make it, and a wreath at the Château's La Londe and De La Londe . I and my family have continued to place a wreath and cross's at the cemetery and visit the Château's as my father did . We took the Jeep which is marked up to the 3rd Div to enable us to get around.

 

When I visited with my father I wore "Civis" , when I go across now with my family we wear the P37 BD marked up to The 1st Bn South Lancashire Regiment , Why?.............to honour my father and all those "kids" that didn't return NOT to play at soldiers, remember these anniversaries are all about those that gave their lives and not forgetting all those that returned as they all went through hell.

 

In my opinion by having all the vehicles present ,it also gives an atmosphere which enables people to grasp some idea of what it was like , obviously not on the same scale but still gives people an idea , also its a way of vehicle owners to show their respect by being there , and to show their renovated vehicles which they have the right to be proud of .

 

I will say someare areas of Normandy are a circus "Hollywood" impressions etc etc , sorry this isn't the place. Cigar smoking Americans , sunglass's , more medal ribbons than a Christmas tree, stars a tripe flags bigger than the vehicle there hanging off ,riding around with wailing sirens (this year some clown (French) dressed in his Hollywood regalia rode through Arromanche with his sirens going while the remembrance ceremony was taking place !!!) Nah sorry wrong place wrong time , that needs to be saved for the arena events not an Anniversary of remembrance on the scale of D Day .

 

The 6th of June and plus is a day for remembering and paying respect , also for meeting up and socialising not for .............ooooooh look at me I look cool , don't I look like John Wayne ?

 

Sorry ,I maybe a bit bias maybe because my Dad was there ?

 

 

 

Thanks for letting me have my moan/whinge

[Jack]

 

I'm still waiting for your thoughts on all the thousands of holiday makers lying on Normandy beach Graves?

 

 

 

Colin

 

Apologies, I forgot to answer that point.

 

That's pretty straight forward really - holiday makers are doing exactly what they done before the war and that's to chill out on the beach. My point is why do folks think it is so important to have a vehicle on the beach - it wasn't the nicest of places. Remembrance can be just as elegant as parking a vehicle in town.

 

My point about those being behind the camera - wasn't anything to do with film or production companies or cameramen. I was making the point that I know more people who do a lot of serious work 'behind the scenes' away from the limelight, away from the 'hey look at me' attitude.

[gas 44]

Can you honestly say that you own a WW2 vehicle just to honour the veterans? No you own one because its what YOU want and enjoy, myself and others enjoy wearing the uniform as part of what we do, plus it enhances the vehicle, us reenactors probably have more respect for the veterans than your standard MVT owner in combats

The veterans love us wearing the uniform and honouring thier memory, you obviously don't agree by your comments?

As regards you comment, "maybe you should go on an MVT organised trip" why should they have the monopoly on it? I know most MVT do not like reenactors, but then most reenactors don't like the MVT uniform!

Just my opinion?!

 

NO, but after all I did not say that I owned a military vehicle to honour the veterans. I own it cos Jack was selling it.....

If you think I've something against people wearing uniform's, you dont know me at all.Again I have said nothing against that.

I only suggested to go on the MVT trip to be helpful to you as I know sometimes they can get where others cant.

I also find it very insulting your suggestion,that the MVT do not like reenactors,again you are a long way off the mark. I'm not sure what the mvt uniform is.

To be honest we dont all have to dress up (again I'm not against it) to show our respect, our party will be laying some wreaths in more remote places (on our own) at the request of an uncle who landed on D Day as a sexton crew. He still lives at 94 but lost a number of friends.

So PLEASE do not preach to me about respect.

Edited December 17, 2013 by gas 44

[gas 44]

I agree with Lee's comments on this. Must be a first:-D

 

I'm a bit worried too cos I agree with him,maybe because this time he is right.....:-)

[Jack]

I'm a bit worried too cos I agree with him,maybe because this time he is right.....:-)

 

- you been drinking as well Gary?

[N.O.S.]

C'mon Lee.........you well know I can't remember what happened 10 mins ago, never mind 2008.:confused:

 

Degsy - I'm still waiting for that £200 you borrowed off me at the sale last month! :angel:

[gas 44]

- you been drinking as well Gary?

 

I wish, just waiting the arrival of our first grandchild............

[Degsy]

Degsy - I'm still waiting for that £200 you borrowed off me at the sale last month! :angel:

 

Just because I'm cabbage looking doesn't mean I'm green.....anyway I know it can't be true 'cos I never deal in such piddling amounts;)

[Degsy]

Hey Jack, are you suggesting I've been imbibing? That's libelous, you know I never let a drop touch my lips:-X

[ww2rupert]

NO, but after all I did not say that I owned a military vehicle to honour the veterans. I own it cos Jack was selling it.....

If you think I've something against people wearing uniform's, you dont know me at all.Again I have said nothing against that.

I only suggested to go on the MVT trip to be helpful to you as I know sometimes they can get where others cant.

I also find it very insulting your suggestion,that the MVT do not like reenactors,again you are a long way off the mark. I'm not sure what the mvt uniform is.

To be honest we dont all have to dress up (again I'm not against it) to show our respect, our party will be laying some wreaths in more remote places (on our own) at the request of an uncle who landed on D Day as a sexton crew. He still lives at 94 but lost a number of friends.

So PLEASE do not preach to me about respect.

 

Gaz44 i think you need to calm down a bit! i want preaching "respect" to anyone, it was jack who brought that up.

Also your not the only one who's relatives lost friends, thousands did including my relatives so dont preach to me either.

You keep asking about the MVT uniform, well its the "T" shirt sold in your club shop usually worn with combat trousers, hope that will stop you going on!?

And your right i dont know you so please just leave it there mate, its getting boring now

[Tony B]

To answer Jack, your baby has mutated somewhat. Yes I know it is The Historic Military Vehicle Forum, but it has grown to be a multi faceted (Oh Sh*t, I'm going PC) forum opening many aspects of military history and conflicts to disscusion. Of a very high standard. Be Proud of it mate!

 

As for the actual sites of events and behaviour whilst there. Yes, I'm back on my little soap box. A peculiarity of the United Kingdom is that the borders have stayed stable for centuries, and no armed invader has walked the land since 1066. The respect is for the memory of those who served and sacrificed. As for personal feelings, we are all diffrent. I have no hatred of German people, but would never be happy wearing a uniform of the Third reich, and whilst I agree each conflict needs at least two sides. I am still uncomfortable about Third Reich displays. This is due to my upbringing, and I have to live with it.

 

There is a lot of diffrence in attitude to those who regard a place as sacred because blood was shed for it, and those to whom it is a place you played, grew up, work and look to the future.

[gas 44]

Gaz44 i think you need to calm down a bit! i want preaching "respect" to anyone, it was jack who brought that up.

Also your not the only one who's relatives lost friends, thousands did including my relatives so dont preach to me either.

You keep asking about the MVT uniform, well its the "T" shirt sold in your club shop usually worn with combat trousers, hope that will stop you going on!?

And your right i dont know you so please just leave it there mate, its getting boring now

 

OK if you are to single me out for your rantings about everyone you think you know wearing what you think then at least get my name correct its Gas 44.

[Enigma]

Everybody pays respects in other ways.

Some forms are meant as respect but can be viewed as disrespectful by others. What I mean?

 

Here a example.

I used to go to a commemoration with Brit veterans in uniform.

Some civilians apparently didn't like that and the organisation asked me not to wear it.

However the veterans never objected, I even asked one what to wear, civvie or uniform, he said unifor.

(Maybe some veterans didn't like it either but didn't tell me, I was a known participant).

 

I think 1 veteran even said something in the lines of "st*ff those who object".

 

Still I realised a commemoration or on a cemetery a uniform should be avoided unless asked specifically.

So to be on the safe side I wear civvie at commemorations.

 

But, some people may object a uniform in a MV parade, or even to civvies driving MV's in the first place!.

 

So I think you can't please everybody.

Some will object or feel offended whatever you do.

 

Some common sense, patience and a bit of explanation/background info might help to convince sceptics it is meant as respect.

 

But 1 thing is important when in uniform.

Don't disrespect the unit you portray by acting as a idiot. Yes, in WW2 soldiers did stupid things but we aren't soldiers who were gonig to a real war.

"When dressed as a soldier, act as a soldier" this was the advice of the US defence attache when asked what to do at a ceremony.

 

Take a look here;

http://www.combatcamera.be/re-enactment-quality-charter/

Thanks.

Edited December 20, 2013 by Enigma

[Davey089]

Everybody pays respects in other ways.

Some forms are meant as respect but can be viewed as disrespectful by others. What I mean?

 

Here a example.

I used to go to a commemoration with Brit veterans in uniform.

Some civilians apparently didn't like that and the organisation asked me not to wear it.

However the veterans never objected, I even asked one what to wear, civvie or uniform, he said unifor.

(Maybe some veterans didn't like it either but didn't tell me, I was a known participant).

 

I think 1 veteran even said something in the lines of "st*ff those who object".

 

Still I realised a commemoration or on a cemetery a uniform should be avoided unless asked specifically.

So to be on the safe side I wear civvie at commemorations.

 

But, some people may object a uniform in a MV parade, or even to civvies driving MV's in the first place!.

 

So I think you can't please everybody.

Some will object or feel offended whatever you do.

 

Some common sense, patience and a bit of explanation/background info might help to convince sceptics it is meant as respect.

 

But 1 thing is important when in uniform.

Don't disrespect the unit you portray by acting as a idiot. Yes, in WW2 soldiers did stupid things but we aren't soldiers who were gonig to a real war.

"When dressed as a soldier, act as a soldier" this was the advice of the US defence attache when asked what to do at a ceremony.

 

Take a look here;

http://www.combatcamera.be/re-enactment-quality-charter/

Thanks.

 

 

:clap::thumbsup:

[Davey089]

Just an update I received , thought I would pass it on as a matter of interest to those that are attending Arromanche and the Sword /Oustreham areas on June 6th .............Don't shoot the messenger , I've just been reading through the post and rather heated one in areas :nut: ......Right here we go :

 

Arromanche :June 6th ....Morning visit parade with the Dutch Royal Family and Prime Minister ,British Royals in the afternoon .

 

HMS Bulwark off shore

Access to Ouisterham and the International event is more or less by ticketed invitation and is a VVIP + a few Veterans event and totally inaccessible on 6^th June. 19 heads of state at Ouistreham the security is as you can imagine.

All other day's – no problem

 

Travelling about everywhere else will be difficult due to the level of traffic, rather than places being blocked off or badge access.....

 

Some roads will be blocked off in and around Arromanches for sensible reasons.

 

There you go chaps , hope this helps to some degree so you can plan your itinerary

 

NB as far as beach access goes , I havn't a clue :saluting:

 

Dave

Edited April 4, 2014 by Davey089

[Tony B]

Beach acess? If the tides out as it was on the 60th it was down to the slip, a wave and Bonjour to the Gendarmes and off I went!

[No Signals]

Sorry if this is old news and I am duplicating but I can't find it on the site. I came across the following website today that makes for interesting reading if you are taking a vehicle to Normandy this year. I post it as in the same manner as Davey089 as a 'messenger', passing on what I came across. Not as an alarmist.

 

Assuming this is not some elaborate April Fool, hoax or 'phishing scam' to get your info and address; to summarise the inference is it seems that in order to get your vehicle, or yourself and passengers, in to certain designated areas on or around the 6th then you will need to obtain an official MOD pass. This it appears been an approach to the French Authorities by the UK MOD. It applies only to UK nationals/p.port holders (?) and is security related.

 

My take on it is that it is aimed primarily at the venues where VIP's etc are attending ceremonies but the map that appears to go with it is rather encompassing!

 

The passes are being issued by priority to UK Veterans and their helpers. After them it is first come first served. All passes have to be applied for before 30th April. So not a lot of time.

 

With my limited knowledge of fraud websites, and other contacts, it appears from a limited search to be a genuine situation, but I leave it to you chaps to decide for yourselves.

 

I recall on the 65th that the main motorway was sealed off to all traffic and that some other areas were closed to all traffic at various other times when dignitaries were in transit, so it is not impossible that something more elaborate could be put in place.

 

If it is genuine then it is not impossible that quite a few plans could be upset if vehicles/owners arrive without a pass and cannot get where they want/need.

 

http://dday70.wordpress.com/2014/04/03/mod-dday70-accreditation-form-available/

[No Signals]

Further to my above post, I have just seen what I believe to be accurate confirmation that a pass system will be in place for accessing certain areas. This is intended for ensuring full and proper access for UK veterans but will inevitably impact other visitors. This is at the behest of the French Authorities, not as reported in some places by the UK.