It's not April 1st, is it?

[ArtistsRifles]

I seriously thought this was a wind-up - then the mag with inclusions dropped through the letterbox.

To be honest my gut reaction having read it was one of shock and sadness that such Politically Correct <censored> has started creeping into our hobby :-( :-(

I'd hoped we'd somehow stay aloof/exempt from such garbage - seems my hopes were in vain..... :-( :-(

[Great War truck]

Richard

 

Without prejudice

 

I do understand that you had a disagreement with the MVT, the facts of which i am not familiar with, so it would therfore be inappropriate for me to comment on. My understanding is that the majority of your area voted with your feet and moved on to form your own club. That is fine, we live in a democracy, you can do these things. However the MVT is a democratic organisation, people do stand for election (not many want to) and get voted in. If your area felt strongly enough on your concerns you could have proposed members of your area for positions within the MVT committee, and encouraged your area members to vote for you. You could defintitely have got some if not all of the seats and have taken control of the MVT to achieve your objectives.

 

Such a split has happpened before in other areas, i have watched it and i always think that it weakens the overall military vehicle movement ever so slightly. Take France for example where there are hundreds of military vehicle clubs, but with no central voice. I think this lack of group control was a great hinderance in the recent ban in France of certain types of military vehicles. It could happen here yet.

 

As i said, we live in a democracy, you can do what you want. I must say though (hopefully without causing offence) that you do seem to be using this forum to get at the MVT wherever possible. Things have happened or been said in the past that have made you very angry and you make this very obvious, but for goodness sake Richard, please let go. The MVT is not perfect, but what body is? If something is felt to be seriously wrong it will be reflected by the number of people at the AGM. The members can fix it if they want to, if they accept it then they wont attend. There was less than 1% turnout at the AGM last year, with 2 items on the agenda. One was about mugs, the other about life membership awards. We got through both items in less than 5 minutes. We now have a whole raft of controversial (PC) things to consider. Maybe we will get as much as a 2% turnout this year.

 

Tim (too)

[Richard Notton]

It isn't for MV owners to feel guilty over fossil fuels usage. . . . .

It's not for anyone to feel guilty about surely.

 

Look, its quite simple, the climate systems of the earth are driven by the sun, the human race is insignificant to the world systems and its following the same patterns that can and have been recorded and measured over the years.

 

Man can only make microscopically miniscule alterations in tiny areas of the globe and to think otherwise is supreme arrogance.

 

Just what proportion of the 0.0015% of man-made CO2 is the UK responsible for and what will our targetted cuts achieve of that portion?

 

Supposing just one volcano erupts, as they do, and puts us back probably hundreds or even thousands of years in nasty pollutants including a few million tons of CO2? Worth bearing in mind the planet is so young that a huge amount of the inside bit is a churning cauldron of molten metal and rock whose action generates a magnetic field which is jolly handy for your compass. Bit of a problem though as it changes strength, polarity and direction as can be seen on any OS map in the detail.

 

We seem unconcerned about this although one day all the pigeons will fly the wrong way and the oceans food supply et al will disappear for a while as the deeper organisms come to the surface and die while the shallow types will do the opposite.

 

But hey, lets look on the bright side, another layer of material to make oil and so petrol for another umpty thousands of years supply.

 

Nobody has mentioned the other greenhouse gas though, water vapour, we're all making loads of that so perhaps if mankind stopped breathing it would be an "improvement."

 

We need to realise that the carbon fashion trend has taken off into a world money spinner and tax revenue earner bar none, how is it that the same doom and gloom experts were hyping a global freeze 33 years ago, that's a fast change for a system that takes thousands of years to show any hint of a measurable difference.

 

Who is going to be the fool to jeopardise their fat research grants by reporting things the payer doesn't want to hear?

 

In any case the world self-heals and evolves to keep its systems in order, man can't kill the planet, well before we can it will remove the problem and eradicate mankind.

 

But it is getting warmer, albeit ever so slowly, the total life-giver and fossil fuel producer Mr I-can-fusion-it Sun it happily rushing through space with its attendant solar system gobbling up hydrogen to convert into helium by fusion at nigh on 100% efficiency. Space isn't empty, there's about one atom of hydrogen a mile and more than enough to feed the sun's habit.

 

The sun is getting bigger and one day will be a red giant having by then blown the atmosphere away, evaporated the oceans and covered the globe with a nice crunchy layer of glass; any decent astro-physicist can tell you when this will be to a few decimal points of accuracy, not that mankind will, or could, be around to see it. What they can't accurately predict is wether the sun then collapses to a white dwarf or it super-novas and vaporises the solar system in an instant.

 

Its only a few thousands of billions of years away so perhaps we'd better stop wringing our hands about fossil fuels that can be replaced by annually cropped versions and the CO2 con that is just that, a con; hey, hydrogen tax to pay for sweeping it away before the sun gets it.

 

Yeh, right.

[Richard Notton]

Richard

 

Without prejudice

Oh dear, bit legalese isn't it? :-)

 

I do understand that you had a disagreement with the MVT, the facts of which i am not familiar with, so it would therfore be inappropriate for me to comment on.

So, let me see, inappropriate to comment on but you have. Bit of a puzzle that, but never mind.

 

My understanding is that the majority of your area voted with your feet and moved on to form your own club.

No, that's essentially incorrect and it would have been with their feet not mine incidentally.

 

If your area felt strongly enough on your concerns you could have proposed members of your area for positions within the MVT committee,

The area was dissolved by them before that opportunity arose and in any event the action you suggest would not be helpful. Perhaps your correct line "the facts of which i am not familiar with" is entirely appropriate here.

 

So, I really cannot, in deference to Jack, waste his space to address items probably based on erroneous assumptions. I have all the documents here which tell the whole story and without the wherewithall to put the lot on the web for accuracy, anyone is welcome to visit and go through them, I'll make the tea.

 

Perhaps I could ask you with the greatest respect if you think its fair and reasonable that massaged and erroneous statements are published in a controlled journal with no right of reply, that our formal business contacts receive strongly worded disparaging letters and our long standing show has both said to be cancelled/uninsured if anyone innocently inquires?

 

I'd be grateful also if you recognise I operate under my full name and not a pseudonym.

 

All the best

 

 

[Gerry Khann]

Hi there

 

 

[Marmite!!]

Hi there

 

 

 

 

Hi Gerald,

 

welcome, perhaps you would like to post you introduction here & tell us a bit about yourself.. http://www.hmvf.co.uk/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=49&board=19.0

 

Lee

[Gerry Khann]

Hi there again

 

That's great start, messing up my first ever post on any forum site, though I have visited this one a few times before. I don't know how to do all the fancy page stuff but can't even get my pseudonym on the page or make the spell check work!!!!!!!

 

I just thought I would reply to some fairly negative messages left on here about the Military Vehicle Club's motions for their AGM. I have met the members up here near Lancaster and they all seem like regular vehicle enthusiast and they have made me welcome. I have not yet joined but I like the members I've met and I like some of these proposals, so the result is I will be sending my subscription off as my next job.

 

However, that's not the point. Surely any member can put any motion to their club's AGM - whatever the club. It is then up to the members to vote for it or reject it. To stiffle motions just because someone in authorty thinks they're silly smacks of censorship to me. The fact that this club are willing to bring any motion from a member shows that they welcome debate and is therefore must be a massive plus point. My feeling is that some of these proposals will get short shift, but others hopefully will get more time. I for one think we should take the tree idea very seriously, that is assuming it not some non-member just trying to score a point against one club just because they are in another. Surely all old car owners should get along - there are enough outside bodies trying to stop all of our motoring hobbies.

 

Enough of my first jumping on a soap box, but where is the best place to find military Land Rover bits? Sorry, perhaps I should have started a second message.

 

Gerry

[Marmite!!]

I propose that the MVT hand out free packets of seeds with every membership renewal :-D

[Great War truck]

Hi Richard

 

Thanks for your response there. There is so much that i could say in reply, but i will not. There are plenty of other things that i can do with my time, and life is too short. However:

 

Oh dear, bit legalese isn't it? :-)

 

 

 

No. That is legalese. ;-)

 

The Overlord show was the first big MV show that i ever attended (back in 1992 i think) and it was fabulous. We made a point of going every year, but i have missed the last two. A shame, they were always great fun, i met loveley people and had a fantastic time.

 

Although we will disagree on some points i must say that i wish you, the SOE and the Overlord show every success in the future. What has happened has happened and can not be undone, so we must move on. How we chose to do so is up to us.

 

I wish you well

 

 

 

I'd be grateful also if you recognise I operate under my full name and not a pseudonym.

 

 

 

 

I presume that this is because of the new stringent regulations introduced by the Department of Health following the Dr Howard Shipman murders?

 

Tim (too)

[Richard Notton]

I propose that the MVT hand out free packets of seeds with every membership renewal :-D

 

Quite right.

 

More than half our members are also MVT members, we often lay on a coach for club trips out and perhaps they'd like the facility to attend and especially support motion 6. I'll find out this Thursday, far too few take an active interest, we should be able to muster 50 bodies at least.

 

I'd agree with Gerald, quite right to have any member propose any motion, probably right to debate these too perhaps.

[ackack]

I believe the afore-mentioned military vehicle group is a registered charity.

I would be interested to know what charitable work it does to achieve this status, anyone any ideas ?

[ArtistsRifles]

By the sounds of it - planting trees in future.......... :-) :-) :-)

[Richard Farrant]

I believe the afore-mentioned military vehicle group is a registered charity.

I would be interested to know what charitable work it does to achieve this status, anyone any ideas ?

 

 

It has kept me on the straight and narrow for 30 years of membership, giving me something to look forward to and read, every 3 months. Also we get to be taken on tours of far off beaches in France, every 5 years.

 

Richard

[Marmite!!]

I would be interested to know what charitable work it does to achieve this status, anyone any ideas ?

 

 

All the details are freely availible on the internet... http://www.charity-commission.gov.uk/registeredcharities/showcharity.asp?regno=327768&submit=Run+Search

 

 

 

Main Charity 327768

 

THE MILITARY VEHICLE TRUST

 

 

Working Name THE MVT

 

 

Charity Correspondent MR ALAN COGDELL

THE OLD STABLES

THORNHAM ROAD

GISLINGHAM

EYE

SUFFOLK

IP23 8HP

 

 

Telephone 01379 788233

 

Email Address alancog@aol.com

 

Website Address http://www.mvt.org.uk

 

Governing Document MEMORANDUM AND ARTICLES OF ASSOCIATION INCORPORATED 3 MARCH 1988

 

Objects TO PROMOTE AND ENCOURAGE THE RESTORATION AND PRESERVATION OF MILITARY VEHICLES OF HISTORICAL INTEREST AND THE PRESERVATION OF BOOKS, DRAWINGS, RECORDS, DOCUMENTS, SOUND AND VISUAL RECORDINGS, RECORDINGS, CINEMATOGRAPH FILMS, AND PHOTOGRAPHS RELATING TO SUCH VEHICLES, THEIR HISTORY AND THEIR DEVELOPMENT.

 

Area of Benefit NOT DEFINED

 

 

Area of Operation Charity Operates inside and outside England and Wales

EUROPE-UNITED KINGDOM

 

 

Registration History 15 Apr 1988 Registered

 

 

Classification

 

What Environment/Conservation/Heritage

 

 

Who General public/Mankind

 

 

How Provides human resource(eg staff/volunteers)

Acts as umbrella or resource body

 

 

 

To view account documents click here Click Here for Help

 

Mailing & Submissions Mailing

Cycle Financial Year Annual Return Accounts

Received

Start End Issued Received

AR00 01 Oct 1999 30 Sep 2000 21 Nov 2000 13 Aug 2001 13 Aug 2001

AR01 01 Oct 2000 30 Sep 2001 11 Jan 2002 13 Jun 2002 13 Jun 2002

AR02 01 Oct 2001 30 Sep 2002 21 Oct 2002 25 Jun 2003 25 Jun 2003

AR03 01 Oct 2002 30 Sep 2003 24 Oct 2003 29 Jul 2004 29 Jul 2004

AR04 01 Oct 2003 30 Sep 2004 19 Oct 2004 12 Jul 2005 12 Jul 2005

AR05 01 Oct 2004 30 Sep 2005 16 Dec 2005 18 Jul 2006 18 Jul 2006

AR06 01 Oct 2005(estimated) 30 Sep 2006(estimated) 22 Nov 2006

 

 

Financial History Financial Year Start Financial Year End Gross Income Total Expenditure

01 Oct 1999 30 Sep 2000 £50,659 £43,061

01 Oct 2000 30 Sep 2001 £55,358 £53,580

01 Oct 2001 30 Sep 2002 £54,873 £53,673

01 Oct 2002 30 Sep 2003 £66,100 £66,004

01 Oct 2003 30 Sep 2004 £84,433 £100,855

01 Oct 2004 30 Sep 2005 £88,156 £79,489

 

[Snapper]

I think it is important to have a "time out" here. There are many people who strongly value what the MVT has achieved and what it means to them. I think it is very important to keep this in mind. But, criticism and passionate informed debate is essential to keep any organisation fresh and in progression. It cannot stand still. I am going to put my hand up - I don't vote and I have never been to an AGM in my short three years of membership. So I am not taking any high lofty stance. If people really have axes to grind about anything they must vote to get the change they want or vote with their feet. I would prefer to see a strong forward thinking MVT supported by us all. But I think that change is not easy for some people, in whatever field it may be, and the likes of this forum however positive a thing it is, and obviously I think it is; are a form of progress not everyone likes. They need to be persuaded that some change is good. Politics can strangle the most honourable of intentions. So I will put my money where my mouth is and vote and support the democracy in the MVT and support it wholeheartedly. After all, I do pay for it like we all do. What I don't want to see is any conflict spilling onto HMVF that puts us or the MVT in bad light. I do support everyone having their say. It is brilliant and should continue. This is where a forum wins hands down. It is immediate and dynamic in ways printed media and monthly meetings cannot be. That was a party political broadcast by the Snapper party...and now on the Light Programme we have Reginald Dixon and his amazing organ....

[ackack]

Yes I am aware of the good work the MVT does for its members and the general public, the military vehicle preservation movement would probably be dead and buried without it. The word "charity" is usually akin to financial assistance to a needy group such as medical or life threatening. Doesn't seem to go with saving old trucks, perhaps there is a more suited word that doesn't sound so dramatic. People have often asked me "why is your group a registered charity?" I have not been able to answer.

I am pro MVT but as this thread started about the motions proposed I find some of them a little too political and environmental and not really anything to do with military vehicle preservation, or was it really an April 1st ?

Wouldn't have thought the MVT could ever afford anything remotely big enough to host a show, how much would it cost to buy RAF Kemble show area?

MVT could organise driving lessons for vehicles with a crash gearbox, that would probably benefit a third of its members! That would be a motion worth considering.

[Marmite!!]

Yes I am aware of the good work the MVT does for its members and the general public, the military vehicle preservation movement would probably be dead and buried without it. The word "charity" is usually akin to financial assistance to a needy group such as medical or life threatening. Doesn't seem to go with saving old trucks, perhaps there is a more suited word that doesn't sound so dramatic. People have often asked me "why is your group a registered charity?" I have not been able to answer.

I am pro MVT but as this thread started about the motions proposed I find some of them a little too political and environmental and not really anything to do with military vehicle preservation, or was it really an April 1st ?

Wouldn't have thought the MVT could ever afford anything remotely big enough to host a show, how much would it cost to buy RAF Kemble show area?

MVT could organise driving lessons for vehicles with a crash gearbox, that would probably benefit a third of its members! That would be a motion worth considering.

 

 

Perhaps you could ask the Com. directly what exactly the charitable status of the trust means, may be it's time there was some sort of explanation in Windscreen as there is probably many members who are a little confused by this.. I'm sure they do outstanding charitable work which should be brought to the attention of the members.

 

I'm sure the MVT are uncomfortable with question like this being asked on the Forum but until they set up some sort of Forum for themselves where members can vent their concerns they will keep cropping up on here. Alternatively they are always welcome to come on here & answer the questions directly. There are a lot of people who do see threads like this as MVT Bashing but if they were to step back they would see they are serious concerns MVT Members have with the Trust..

[ackack]

I second that, the MVT ought to have a forum. Although new forums take a long time to get established, this one has to be the best followed by Maple Leaf Up.

 

[Marmite!!]

I second that, the MVT ought to have a forum. Although new forums take a long time to get established, this one has to be the best followed by Maple Leaf Up.

 

 

 

It wouldn't have to be an all bells & whistles forum just somewhere members can voice their concerns & get answers & it would be MVT members only as they could issue passwords with the membership..

[M5Clive]

The idea being suggested regarding the MVT buying its own land for a potential showground results from a discussion, as I understand it, regarding the possible use of Gift-Aid funds. The potential amount of money to come from Gift-Aid is significant and it was just one of several ideas entering a think-tank for a contructive use of the funds.

 

Why not have your say on the matter at the AGM in April - It's a very central venue for the entire UK and the recent motions proposed by Mr A Jones should certainly spark a debate or two thats for sure!

 

Cds

[Snapper]

 

 

I'm sure the MVT are uncomfortable with question like this being asked on the Forum but until they set up some sort of Forum for themselves where members can vent their concerns they will keep cropping up on here. Alternatively they are always welcome to come on here & answer the questions directly. There are a lot of people who do see threads like this as MVT Bashing but if they were to step back they would see they are serious concerns MVT Members have with the Trust..

 

 

 

Absolutely right.

[Richard Notton]

I believe the afore-mentioned military vehicle group is a registered charity.

I would be interested to know what charitable work it does to achieve this status, anyone any ideas ?

 

Just the top line is on the web as we've seen, perhaps you'd need to write and ask:

 

The Charity Commission

Harmsworth House,

13-15 Bouverie Street,

London. EC4Y 8DP

[Jack]

By the sounds of it - planting trees in future.......... :-) :-) :-)

 

 

To be honest Neil, we do not need to plant anymore trees - we just need to manage the woodland that we have. :angel:

[ArtistsRifles]

Careful Jack - go around saying that in public and Gordon "Uncle Joe" Brown will have you arrested and inside before you can say "copicing"!!!!

Mustn't be threatening the sacred golden cow of potential tax revenues now, must we!!!!

[ackack]

I was under the impression that we only use timber products specifically grown for this purpose in this country and in Europe/ Scandinavia. There are countless forrests which wouldn't be there otherwise. Imports from so called rain-forrests have virtually dried up due to close import scrutiny. Also isn't the Forrestry Commision doing away with coniferous and going back to planting native deciduous trees as the need for pulp material and pit-props has rapidly reduced over the years. Why then do we think that planting extra trees can help ecologically? Doesn't the native wildlife benefit more from open countryside rather than dense forrestry? Would we not be better off planting natural meadow plants and setting aside areas of land for natural development? Probably yes but that still has nothing do with military vehicle emmisions, and due to the negligible amount of green machines on the road at any one time I think it should be ignored.

I would have thought that public transport i.e. aircraft, smoky diesel trains, buses, ships contribute much of the polution but the government is trying to support these and they are probably the worst offenders.

Oh and then some bright spark thinks that banning the sale of incandescent light bulbs will help the environment. Anyway oil and petrol will run out along time before we notice any so called global warming which is on a natural cycle anyway, don't forget its only 8000 years since the last ice age.

Make the most of your green machines before some authority says they are not "green" and we can no longer use them.