phylo_roadking Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 All, I'm doing some work off and on on the September 1944 Austin K5 "problem" while a Tom O'Brien busys himself with the papertrail at Kew! My part in his efforts has been to throw some light on various possible technical problems that could result from what issues he HAS found with the K5...which is a lot LESS than the American statements about the K5 would have us believe! But one thing that has surfaced in the last week is the question of engine lubrication specifically - what grade of engine oil was specificed for the K5, and the earlier K2 also? A hint has surfaced that earlier examples of the K5 GS may not have had an oil scraper ring on the piston; but this lack only gave problems when the detergent-laced "HD 30" grade oil was used. Having "killed" an H-D Sportster 20 years ago now by using what the dealer recommended...Castrol GTX...rather than a "straight" grade oil, one with far less detergents in it...I know the damage that can be done by a detergent-heavy oil stripping carbon out of odd corners of oilways and oil galleries...especially places where the engine designers expected carbon to build up! The same thing is happening today with motorcycle engines and synthetic oil. If an engine has been run for most of its life with mineral oil...and a new user changes to synthetic oil...this "cleans out" oilways etc. of YEARS of carbon deposits...which circulate around the engine until the next oil change! Using synthetic oil in a bike after years of mineral-based oil is a surefire way of killing it Now - one document turned up at Kew hints that the lack of an oil scraper ring in the K5's engine only gave problems AFTER the change to using HD 30 grade oil.... So what was used BEFORE HD 30??? Does anyone on the forum happen to have K2 or K5 drivers' manuals, or the disassembly/reassembly manual, and would be able to tell me what grade(s) of oil were listed for use in the K5 in 1943 and 1944...and possibly in the K2 before that for comparison? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian L Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 So what was used BEFORE HD 30??? Does anyone on the forum happen to have K2 or K5 drivers' manuals, or the disassembly/reassembly manual, and would be able to tell me what grade(s) of oil were listed for use in the K5 in 1943 and 1944...and possibly in the K2 before that for comparison? I have a complete set of K5 drivers manuals & workshop manuals covering every aspect of the vehicle including the airportable model. The only oil grade listed is HD30. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAFMT Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 And i've gone through half a dozen manuals for the K2/K3 ranging in date from October 1943 to January 1946, and they all stipulate 30H.D. as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeePig Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 Do these manuals happen to have an engine cross-section, one showing or not the presence of an oil scraper ring? trevor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAFMT Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 Right, I've had a look at some K6 manuals as well, and that also seems to have had the same engine. Both the K2/K3 and the K6 manuals have exploded views of the engine in their later (arond mid-44 onwards) editions which i shall try and scan. The 1942 edition of the K6 manual has exactly the same cutaway diagram to show lubrication flow, as the later editions, which again i will try and scan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ted angus Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 Hi Bryan Have you ever seen a picture of a K3 in RAF markings ??? Have a K3 to build but it doesn't figure in any data book list I have or in any of the tables in the 1944 AP 3090- where as some very obscure types do . There is a front view in Les Freathy's book but it has a bridge class plate 5 so I think its more likely a K2 . I think the front views of them are identical. The oil problem is very interesting it has surfaced several times over the years. My Dad's section vehicle (RE) was a K5 and he used to say apart from the built in siren it was a great truck. Regards TEd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeePig Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 Excellent, I look forward to seeing them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wally dugan Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 HI first of all Ihave checked the oil recomended for both these vehicles as it has been said 30 H.D is the one recomended secondly Ihave found a work shop manual covering AUSTIN engines used by the war Department it seems that engines fitted to austins below two ton had Aluminium Alloy pistons those up to Five ton had Cast IRON PISTONS I Quote from the book on the subject of piston rings fitted [ fit two compression rings and one oil control ring to each piston ] the BOOK appears to be dated 1944 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickAbbott Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 From the K2 manual, dated 1944: "RINGS. Two compression, one oil control, all above gudgeon pin. Ring gap ·008/·012-in. Groove widths: Compression ·1265/·1270-in. Oil Control ·1577/·1582-ins. Groove clearance, ·002-in. to ·0025-in." Nick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefano Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 Having no experience of K5 engines these are general considerations only. I don't really know to why a switch from a non detergent to a detergent oil would have created such great problems, as long as the vital statistics of the oil stayed the same. After all, here we are talking about what were basically brand new vehicles with minimal mileage on them, therefore sludge build up shouldn't have been an issue. If there was any debris floating around a K5 engine in 1944 the chances are that it was left there by Austins. By the same token, I can't see what influence an oil scraper ring would make. If the pistons didn't have them I would have thought that adequate crankcase breathing would have been built in to the design and the risk of oil contamination from exhaust gas blow-by would remain the same whatever oil was specified, although admittedly in this case a detergent oil would tend to create more wear in the long run due to it's propensity to carry crud around with it unless adequately filtered. And here is the crux. On my old bikes I prefer to run "straight" oil because filtration is usually a joke and because ball and roller bearings live far happier lives without any rubbish floating around. On the other hand, I always fit full flow filters to Norton Commandos and run them on multigrade with absolutely no ill effects whatsoever. A bypass type oil filtration system will always tend to leave some unfiltered oil around, which may be the reason your Harley grenaded itself, although from (probably bad) memory a Sportster should run Straight 50, whereas GTX is 15/40, and this takes us back to oil grades which is where I came in.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phylo_roadking Posted July 24, 2013 Author Share Posted July 24, 2013 (edited) Guys, thanks for everything so far! To those of you with the manuals - From the K2 manual, dated 1944: "RINGS. Two compression, one oil control, all above gudgeon pin. Ring gap ·008/·012-in. Groove widths: Compression ·1265/·1270-in. Oil Control ·1577/·1582-ins. Groove clearance, ·002-in. to ·0025-in." ...while they may be for "all" K5 variants, and/or 1944 types - do they actually specify a publication date? (Thinking here of experiences over recent years with "AP" pulications from the Air Ministry - Pilots' Notes, technical manuals etc...that contained a full doument control procedure and recorded/dated all changes to the content...!) Here's the "smoking gun" that started me on this particular trail...one part of an exchange with the "ministry" regarding Austin cars etc. ordered by the War Minstry in 1946... ...In other words - oil scraper rings weren't necessary or THOUGHT necessary UNTIL HD 30 oil was specified. As in...they weren't fitted BEFORE this on that particular engine at least. If it does in fact turn out that HD 30 was specified from "new", as were oil control rings, on the K2/3/5/6 egnines...then fine, that closes out one line of enquiry. The definition of the problem in the 21st Army Group Admin History is interesting from ONE respect that often passes people by... The problem affected 1,400 K5s that were found to be worn out and defective when they were looked at to augment the number of L of C 4x4 3tonners...but the SAME "defect" affected REME's available number of complete SPARE K5 engines I.E. ones that would have been palleted at the factory from new! Whatever the "defect" was it affected old AND new engines Thing is...there's nothing turning up ANYWHERE in any war diary or other file at Kew! Edited July 24, 2013 by phylo_roadking Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phylo_roadking Posted July 24, 2013 Author Share Posted July 24, 2013 (edited) Hi Stefano... After all, here we are talking about what were basically brand new vehicles with minimal mileage on them, therefore sludge build up shouldn't have been an issue. Actually, it looks like an appreciable number of the "1,400" may have been waterproofed K5s issued to GT companies for the assault...then recalled into the reserve of "B" vehicles that was fast building up in the bridgehead and the GT companies issued with new, unwaterproofed vehicles. Therfore they had many and various mileages when they came to be checked for re-use in late August/September. But the Admin History specifies TWO "issues" - that they were "worn out" AND that they were "defective". By the same token, I can't see what influence an oil scraper ring would make. If the pistons didn't have them I would have thought that adequate crankcase breathing would have been built in to the design and the risk of oil contamination from exhaust gas blow-by would remain the same whatever oil was specified, although admittedly in this case a detergent oil would tend to create more wear in the long run due to it's propensity to carry crud around with it unless adequately filtered. And here is the crux. THAT'S what I was thinking...bearing in mind that the waterproofed 4x4s ran appreciably hotter than standard 4x4s. A bypass type oil filtration system will always tend to leave some unfiltered oil around, which may be the reason your Harley grenaded itself, although from (probably bad) memory a Sportster should run Straight 50, whereas GTX is 15/40, and this takes us back to oil grades which is where I came in.... Castrol tends to change the formulation of GTX depending on the oil specification of the largest number of cars on UK roads at any given time In the late '80s, for example, it was 20/50...! Edited July 24, 2013 by phylo_roadking Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phylo_roadking Posted July 24, 2013 Author Share Posted July 24, 2013 Guys... ...does anyone have an identifiably 1939-42 K2 manual??? I've just been told elsewhere that there was indeed a widespread change from "M"-prefixed oils to HD" -prefixed, detergent oil types sometime between between October 1942 and October 1943 :shocked: And of course manuals from later than this, even for earlier marks/models still in service would from THEN on list the new specification... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Signals Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 I can't contribute anything to this thread but have to say it is interesting and keep the research and help coming chaps. The answer must be out there somewhere. :-\ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wally dugan Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 I would like to make two coments this subject has been raised on a number of occasions over many years I recall getting letters on this subject from members of the public and talked to Bart VANDERVEEN on this very same matter we did find in the papers of a commitee formed by the war DEPARTMENT who where discussing the new range of engines to be fitted to the military fleet of vehicles this went on to be the B range of engines there was referance to engine failures towards the end of world war 2 secondly it may be 40 odd years since I first started working on military vehicles but some things you do not forget a oil ring or scraper ring is to allow thin flim of oil to re main on the surface of the bore further more due to the close proximiity of the piston to the oil being discharged from the bearings combined with cylinder distortion has demanded a scraper ring that exerts an outward pressure of about 3150 kpa [450 Ibf/ins] this is about twenty times as great as the standard iron types I think that shoud answer the question about why they fit scraper rings finnally the BOOK i refered to was just one of a series on wartime engines fitted to all manufactures vehicles supplied to the war department 1939 to 1945 there are seven volumes the bit i quoted in my first post refered to the K5 engine it was interesting to see that it applied to the K2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phylo_roadking Posted July 24, 2013 Author Share Posted July 24, 2013 (edited) Hi Wally... over many years I recall getting letters on this subject from members of the public and talked to Bart VANDERVEEN on this very same matter we did find in the papers of a commitee formed by the war DEPARTMENT who where discussing the new range of engines to be fitted to the military fleet of vehicles this went on to be the B range of engines there was referance to engine failures towards the end of world war 2 This is EXACTLY what Tom O'Brien is looking for! 'Cos there's no other sign of the problem showing up yet! Can you by any chance remember the name of the said committee??? (I take it it's too many years gone to remember the file number!) {This illustrates an "advantage" of t'Internet - years ago, information found might circulate for a while "in the fraternity"...but unless it found its way into print it was often forgotten again or lost for good. For all its faults, the Net at least "freezes in amber" a lot of material that would otherwise be lost again...} Edited July 24, 2013 by phylo_roadking Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wally dugan Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 I would like to make two coments this subject has been raised on a number of occasions over many years I recall getting letters on this subject from members of the public and talked to Bart VANDERVEEN on this very same matter we did find in the papers of a commitee formed by the war DEPARTMENT who where discussing the new range of engines to be fitted to the military fleet of vehicles this went on to be the B range of engines there was referance to engine failures towards the end of world war 2 secondly it may be 40 odd years since I first started working on military vehicles but some things you do not forget a oil ring or scraper ring is to allow thin flim of oil to re main on the surface of the bore further more due to the close proximiity of the piston to the oil being discharged from the bearings combined with cylinder distortion has demanded a scraper ring that exerts an outward pressure of about 3150 kpa [450 Ibf/ins] this is about twenty times as great as the standard iron types I think that shoud answer the question about why they fit scraper rings finnally the BOOK i refered to was just one of a series on wartime engines fitted to all manufactures vehicles supplied to the war department 1939 to 1945 there are seven volumes the bit i quoted in my first post refered to the K5 engine it was interesting to see that it applied to the K2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wally dugan Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 hi you maybe lucky the file of papers my well be in my loft the file is to my memory about 3 inches thick and A4 it came from CHERTSY OR CHRISTCHURCH ALONG WITH OTHER FILES it would take time to find but if you can wait I am trying to put together a piece on the landrover 101s powered trailers from original trials reports at the moment can I ASK someone to help I type with one finger so it takes time to reply to a post so when I PRESS SUBMIT REPLY UP POPS YOU HAVE NOT LOGGED IN SO I RE LOG IN AND UP POPS THE REPLY TWICE WHAT AM I DOING WRONG REGARDS WALLY Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phylo_roadking Posted July 24, 2013 Author Share Posted July 24, 2013 you maybe lucky the file of papers my well be in my loft the file is to my memory about 3 inches thick and A4 it came from CHERTSY OR CHRISTCHURCH ALONG WITH OTHER FILES it would take time to find but if you can wait... Certainly! A resolution to this is worth waiting for! :-D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wally dugan Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 Will be done by friday on landrover stuff so will look over the weekend Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phylo_roadking Posted July 25, 2013 Author Share Posted July 25, 2013 Thanks Wally! The K5 might take some finding, it might be submerged among OTHER 1944 engine failures though Looking at the 21st Army Group Admin History...the L of C "B" vehicles generally had a very hard time hauling stores forward hundreds of miles from Normandy! And of course - as the Admin History notes...all the L of C trucks suffered from not enough maintenance because of all the road time they were racking up! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAFMT Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 Guys, thanks for everything so far! ...while they may be for "all" K5 variants, and/or 1944 types - do they actually specify a publication date? (Thinking here of experiences over recent years with "AP" pulications from the Air Ministry - Pilots' Notes, technical manuals etc...that contained a full doument control procedure and recorded/dated all changes to the content...!) The K2/3 and K6 manuals I have looked at are all APs, however unlike pilots notes and many other APs these were published by Austin themselves. Hence why it seems strange in that report (which appears to be dated 1946) they claim they didn't know 30HD oil was being used and that they needed to change the engine. Although i must admit the August 42 K6 drivers handbook does not specify a particular oil. Having said that the October 43 drivers handbook is pretty much identical to a late 44 drivers handbook except a change of cover and that specifies 30HD oil, long before the problem became apparent, again negating their claim of ignorance. As for the maintenance manual, the earliest I have is Jan 44 for the K6 and June 44 for the K2/3 but these, again, are identical to later editions. Which is odd because if the problem only showed up during the Normandy campaign then it should have been altered sometime between Jan 44 and June 45. We do have some Vol. 2 part 1 which is the modification sheets, i can try and go through those to see if they mention anything about changes to the engines. ...does anyone have an identifiably 1939-42 K2 manual??? I've just been told elsewhere that there was indeed a widespread change from "M"-prefixed oils to HD" -prefixed, detergent oil types sometime between between October 1942 and October 1943 :shocked: And of course manuals from later than this, even for earlier marks/models still in service would from THEN on list the new specification... As i said above (but in summary form this time ) i am also using info for the K6, which according to the manuals had the same engine, as well as the K2/3 In the August 42 Drivers Handbook it gives no detail of the oil to be used. In the October 43 Drivers Handbook, and later editions of the same, it specifies 30HD oil The Maintenance Manuals from January 44 onwards state 30HD oil All of these manuals were printed by Austin, so they must have known from at least 1943 that there was a change in the oil type being used. In fact even up to 1945 they were giving the exact same engine details including those given by NickAbbot above: "RINGS. Two compression, one oil control, all above gudgeon pin. Ring gap ·008/·012-in. Groove widths: Compression ·1265/·1270-in. Oil Control ·1577/·1582-ins. Groove clearance, ·002-in. to ·0025-in." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAFMT Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 Ted- The K3 is listed in the the early MoS Databook of RAF Vehicles; the one you don't have yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ted angus Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 Ted- The K3 is listed in the the early MoS Databook of RAF Vehicles; the one you don't have yet. Hi Bryan I have just obtained a part copy someone copied their's for me Are you referring to page 69 ? ifs so that is the 6x4 K3YF which was retitled by Austin to K6, I am thinking about the 4x2 version ?? regards TED Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAFMT Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 Yes, my mistake- I had noted it down on a reference sheet without mentioning it was the version that was re-designated K6. Sorry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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