RAF Oddities, or am i being dense?

[RAFMT]

I was going through a couple of RAF Air Publications and have come across a couple of vehicle types I was unaware the the RAF used.

In the second edition of AP3090 Mechanical Transport regulations 1949, the section on bridge classification numbers contains:

GMC DUKWS also marked as obsolescent

Bedford QLTC presumably QLT, although why would the raf need to carry that many troops

GMC (Staghound Armoured Car) listed as Mediterranean and Middle East

 

Also the 1951 edition of the Databook of RAF Vehicles includes and entry for the Vickers Light Tank MkVI with a cross ref. for an AP. This AP is also listed in AP113 Index of Forms and Publications.

 

Now, am I being and these are all in fact quite obvious and I'm just unable to find images. Or is it a case they really are oddities, and if so does anyone have images of any in RAF service?

 

Regards,

Bryan

[ted angus]

Hi Bryan, the QLT was a fairly common one, used as a crewbus on bomber stations , and for general passenger carrying . Often wondered why the Vickers tank is in the data book but some of the Regt units were strangely equipped, certainly had 2 & 6 pounder anti tank guns in the Italy theatre. DUKWs that is a head scratcher Xmas Island or early Gan Days maybe ?????

 

the attached is Middleton St George 3 QLTs in shot.

TED

Edited July 15, 2013 by ted angus

[Gordon_M]

Well if you are thinking DUKWs and the RAF, perhaps I could mention Sunderlands, Catalinas, and anything else wet and winged ?

 

Standby crash rescue, any number of functions

[wally dugan]

Interesting just a thought was the BRIDGE CLASSIFICATION a direct copy of the army one warts and all with no amendments The QLT I can understand as a personal carrier the STAGHOUND AIR FIELD DEFENCE may be

[RAFMT]

Ted- Thanks for that, most of the QL series photos i have are from the front, so maybe I just didn't notice that little extra bit of length on the body. Also it wasn’t mentioned in any of the wartime literature, although I’m only just making headway into the post-war Databook. (P.S. the papers were sent out today)

 

Gordon- There is an excellent series of books published by the Small Craft Group, a class directory of all the marine craft used by the RAF. It does include, in the last volume on assorted sundries, a single DUKW locally and completely unofficially acquired somewhere in the Med. for jollies by the airmen. But that would be no reason to include it in the bridge classification system.

 

Wally- I had wondered the same with regards to it being a direct copy of the Army list. However it is otherwise absent of “Army specific” vehicles, if that makes sense?

[ted angus]

Ted- Thanks for that, most of the QL series photos i have are from the front, so maybe I just didn't notice that little extra bit of length on the body. Also it wasn’t mentioned in any of the wartime literature, although I’m only just making headway into the post-war Databook. (P.S. the papers were sent out today)

 

Gordon- There is an excellent series of books published by the Small Craft Group, a class directory of all the marine craft used by the RAF. It does include, in the last volume on assorted sundries, a single DUKW locally and completely unofficially acquired somewhere in the Med. for jollies by the airmen. But that would be no reason to include it in the bridge classification system.

 

Wally- I had wondered the same with regards to it being a direct copy of the Army list. However it is otherwise absent of “Army specific” vehicles, if that makes sense?

 

Bryan thank you !!!! I will see what other QLT pics I have

 

Wally in some of the RAF bridge lists I think some direct copying from the Army went on- I have one that includes the MACK 6x4 18 ton tank transporter ??

 

TED

[Gerry275]

I was going through a couple of RAF Air Publications and have come across a couple of vehicle types I was unaware the the RAF used.

In the second edition of AP3090 Mechanical Transport regulations 1949, the section on bridge classification numbers contains:

GMC DUKWS also marked as obsolescent

Bedford QLTC presumably QLT, although why would the raf need to carry that many troops

GMC (Staghound Armoured Car) listed as Mediterranean and Middle East

 

Also the 1951 edition of the Databook of RAF Vehicles includes and entry for the Vickers Light Tank MkVI with a cross ref. for an AP. This AP is also listed in AP113 Index of Forms and Publications.

 

Now, am I being and these are all in fact quite obvious and I'm just unable to find images. Or is it a case they really are oddities, and if so does anyone have images of any in RAF service?

 

Regards,

Bryan

 

Bryan, I recently met an instructor whose father @91 is ex RAF commando (which I had not heard of- forerunner of regiment) they went in with commandos to secure airfields and he started off in Mediterranean! so I guess the above would be used? Gerry

[ted angus]

Bryan, I recently met an instructor whose father @91 is ex RAF commando (which I had not heard of- forerunner of regiment) they went in with commandos to secure airfields and he started off in Mediterranean! so I guess the above would be used? Gerry

 

Gerry, their full title was Servicing Commandos. They did commando training but in addition were all skilled tradesmen ; Their job was to help secure captured airfield or suitable landing strips and then undertake refuelling and rearming and at the same time defend the position. Nothing to do with the RAF Regt. There is quite a bit written about them have a google lots to find about them. There were still a few of these guys serving when I joined. In fact my Flt Sgt ( who was an Armourer) George Cohen I only called him Flt !!! at Akrotiri in 1970/71 was the last one I knew in service.

 

 

As the commander of Combined Operations Louis Mountbatten on the 22 January 1942, recommended that the Royal Air Force create a number of Commando units. These units called Servicing Commandos would accompany the Allied Armies when they invaded the continent of Europe either to make German airfields serviceable, or to make operational the new airstrips built by the Army Airfield Construction Units. Eventually 12 Servicing Commandos were formed in the United Kingdom and three in the Middle East. The force consisted of 2,400 officers and men skilled in aircraft maintenance and armaments and were capable of working on all types of aircraft to keep them flying under all kinds of conditions.^[7]

These Commando Units were trained on similar lines to the British Army and Royal Marine Commandos. Each Commando unit comprised two or three officers and between 150 and 170 other ranks. They were equipped with jeeps, motorcycles and up to 15 three ton trucks. Commando units were involved in the major seaborne landings, either going in with the initial invasion forces or giving active support in other ways to keep the aircraft flying.^[7]

Far East [edit]

 

As well as the 15 Servicing Commandos in Europe and the Middle East three smaller units were formed in India, and called Servicing Parties. Each Servicing Party comprised one officer and 30 men. These units were part of the R.A.F. Support Group and supported the Chindits during Operation Thursday. After the surrender of the Japanese Forces in August 1945 they took over Japanese held airfields, assisted in the evacuation of Allied prisoners of war and undertook other peace keeping duties in Java, Thailand and French Indo China.^[7]

Operations [edit]

 

In the Mediterranean Servicing Commandos took part in operations in North Africa, landings in Sicily, landings in Italy and landing in the South of France. Servicing Commando units also took part in the Normandy landings and afterwards some units were withdrawn for service in the Far East.^[7]

 

Formed in the United Kingdom

 

• No. 3201 Servicing Commando was formed in March 1942 from men serving in RAF Fighter Command and served in North Africa, Sicily, Italy and the South of France.

• No. 3202 Servicing Commando was formed in March 1942 from men serving in RAF Fighter Command and served in North Africa, Sicily, Italy and the South of France.

• No. 3203 Servicing Commando was formed in March 1942 from men serving in RAF Fighter Command and served in North Africa, Sicily, Italy and the South of France.

• No. 3204 Servicing Commando was formed in February 1943, from men serving in RAF Fighter Command and served in North Africa.

• No. 3205 Servicing Commando was formed in April 1943 from men serving in RAF Fighter Command and served in Normandy, India, Burma, French Indo-China, Malaya, Thailand and Java.

• No. 3206 Servicing Commando was formed in February 1943 from men serving in RAF Fighter Command and served in North Africa.

• No. 3207 Servicing Commando was formed in April 1943 from men serving in RAF Fighter Command and served in Normandy, India, Burma, French Indo-China, Malaya, Thailand and Java.

• No. 3208 Servicing Commando was formed in April 1943 from men serving in RAF Fighter Command and served in Europe.

• No. 3209 Servicing Commando was formed in April 1943 from men serving in RAF Fighter Command and served in Normandy, India, Burma, French Indo-China, Malaya, Thailand and Java.

• No. 3210 Servicing Commando was formed in April 1943 from men serving in RAF Fighter Command and served in Normandy, India, Burma, French Indo-China, Malaya, Thailand and Java.

• No. 3225 Servicing Commando was formed in August 1942 from men serving in RAF Army Cooperation Command and served in Sicily and Italy.

• No. 3226 Servicing Commando was formed in March 1942 from men serving in RAF Army Cooperation and served in Sicily and Italy.^[7]

 

Formed in the Middle East

 

• No. 3230 Servicing Commando was formed in April 1942 from men serving in RAF Middle East Command and served in Sicily and Italy.

• No. 3231 Servicing Commando was formed in April 1942 from men serving in RAF Middle East Command and served in Sicily and Italy.

• No. 3232 Servicing Commando was formed in April 1942 from men serving in RAF Middle East Command and served in Sicily and Italy.^[7]

 

Formed in India

 

• No. 1 Servicing Party was formed from men in RAF Far East Command and served in India, Burma, Java, Thailand and French Indo China.

• No. 2 Servicing Party was formed from men in RAF Far East Command and served in India, Burma, Java, Thailand and French Indo China.

• No. 3 Servicing Party was formed from men in RAF Far East Command and served in India, Burma, Java, Thailand and French Indo China.^[7]

 

Battle honours [edit]

 

The following Battle honours were awarded to the British Commandos during the Second World War.^[8]

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[TD]

 

 

• Adriatic

• Alethangyaw

• Aller

• Anzio

• Argenta Gap

• Burma 1943–45

• Crete

• Dieppe

• Dives Crossing

• Djebel Choucha

• Flushing

• Greece 1944–45

• Italy 1943–45

• Kangaw

• Landing at Porto San Venere

• Landing in Sicily

• Leese

• Litani

• Madagascar

 

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• Middle East 1941, 1942, 1944

• Monte Ornito

• Myebon

• Normandy Landing

• North Africa 1941–43

• North-West Europe 1942, 1944–1945

• Norway 1941

• Pursuit to Messina

• Rhine

• St. Nazaire

• Salerno

• Sedjenane 1

• Sicily 1943

• Steamroller Farm

• Syria 1941

• Termoli

• Vaagso

• Valli di Comacchio

• Westkapelle

 

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TED

Edited July 15, 2013 by ted angus

[RAFMT]

I've done a lot of research in the past on the RAF Servicing Commandos, even had contact with the association. They used Jeeps, Motorcycles and 3 Tonners but no armour I'm afraid.

 

Ted- I know 51MT used the NR6 and NR9 Macks, but I assume you mean the EXBX was it? I'm sure I have come across references to them before- I'll have to have another look. I just presumed it was for something like hauling the heavy plant of the Airfield Construction Branch.

[ted angus]

Hi Brian Yes the EXBX its possible once redundant moving tanks they would be put to other uses ? just noticed the word tank is not actually in the description but certainly EXBX 18 tonners .. I have a pic somewhere of MACKS transporting Gladiators but I think they are the single tyred / solid cab NR6.

On the subject of MACKs I wonder if the S & T companies used them in Europe ?? I know the Army did. The only pictures I have of the MACK 6x4 10 tonners are 51 MTC and other units in warm climates.

 

regards TED

[GPW Rookie]

Don't forget the R.A.F had their own Bomb Disposal service. The QLT's could have been used for transporting members of the BD Flights to incidents, because the RAF were also tasked with defusing bombs from and on crashed aircraft. The Flights also used armoured cars with chains attatched to sweep airfields of the deadly SD2 Butterfly bombs as there was no other way to dispose of them quickly, this work went on long after the war in Europe had finished.

[GeePig]

And don't forget airfield defence tasks. There is even a thread on here about RAF armoured cars: http://hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/showthread.php?39512-Fordson-based-Rolls-Royce-Armoured-cars

 

trevor

[RAFMT]

Other armoured cars aren't a problem- plenty of pics of Rolls Royce, Lancia, Fordson, Straussler, Otter, Marmon Herrington, Morris Light Recce, Humber Light Recce, Beaverette. The list goes on, but the use of Staghounds by the RAF Regiment/Armoured Car Companies was a new on me - and others it seems, unless it's a mistake. But to put it in the list and specifically state Med and Middle East only suggests to me it's meant to be there.

 

GPWRookie- it's possible, all the memoirs I have read, and official documentation I've seen merely state 3 Ton trucks were used, but don't specify which. Although I'm wondering if it's a Regiment thing again. As for the armoured cars with chains i seem to recall they used obsolete marks of the Beaverette (then again all Beaverettes were obsolete really)

 

 

As to the new question of Macks, I corresponded with Ted while the forum was down- the RAF did issue an AP for a "Mack 15 ton chassis, type 86" although neither of us have as yet identified which model of the Mack was the type 86. Anyone else out there know this one?

[wally dugan]

HI BRYAN

Could the MACK be a NR 4 it was rated at 13 ton but I cannot at the moment find a MACK rated at 15 to

 

REGARDS WALLY

[Chris Hall]

We used to have CVRT scimitar and Spartan in the RAF for Regiment and EOD use so maybe we had light tanks prior to that.

[ted angus]

HI BRYAN

Could the MACK be a NR 4 it was rated at 13 ton but I cannot at the moment find a MACK rated at 15 to

 

REGARDS WALLY

 

I think I have exhausted my bookshelves and boxes without result on this one- but the 6x4s carrying the Gladiators and fitted with condensor tanks would seem to be NR5s 6x4 10 tonners . I now know that the 3 Gladiators were being transferred from 112 Sqn to 6 sqn , the MACKS were driven by 112 Sqn MT drivers .

TED

[wally dugan]

GOOD AFTERNOON TED

 

I have just seen your pictures of the MACKS they do look like NR 4s but I am not good on yank trucks I have looked

through all my reference books including FRED CRIMSONS wheeled military USA vehicles and all british data books

without any luck but l know that on the forum there are people with more knowledge on this subject than me

 

REGARDS WALLY

[ted angus]

Hi Wally could well be , they are in company with some NR6s in another shot

regards TED

[RAFMT]

Just a thought chaps, and I'm also clueless on yankee vehicles, so don't shoot me for this.

From what i understand the EXBX was ordered by France and the deliveries taken over by Britain after the formers fall, this vehicle was then developed into the NR4. The NR4 led to the development of the entire NR series, am I correct so far?

We are all aware that such administrative jobs as compiling the Bridge Classification chart fell upon "Clerks, General Duties" who's MT experience is saluting to OC when he gets out of his staff car.

(drum roll please)

Could it be that EXBX was being used in the same sense we use Hoover when talking about vacuum cleaners or Sellotape when we mean sticky tape. Thus in this context EXBX could be used to mean the entire family?

 

As I say, I could be well out with that theory and probably am, but it's nice to think that even the miltary administration don't know what they're doing sometimes.

 

It's either that or the RAF used the EXBX chassis with a different body on it making it hard to identify in photos.

 

I'm going to raise the 15 ton Chassis, type 86 in the American section of the forum, maybe it will get the attention with the answer.

[ted angus]

This is a real googly ball not that I like cricket but maybe the EXBX were used to move the light Vickers tanks ???

 

Yes I know what you mean about Clerks GD etc 60 years ago creating anomolies that haunt us today.

 

Worth a thought Bryan see what your new thread brings.

 

Chaps, I have been looking at the scans I have of the various, speed limit, passenger loading tables in the 1944 ed of the AP 3090- the EXBX is only mentioned in the bridge class , maybe the Clerks GD carried this from another document- possibly a joint service shipping list or similar - and consequently we are chasing something the RAF never had on charge. I wonder if Type 86 is an Amercan designation for an NR series ??

 

TED

[wally dugan]

O come on BRYAN

 

Just sat in the garden with a beer l think what you say about the NR4s is right in the last lot of paper work sent to me

there is a section on american trucks used by all three arms of service also a list of light tanks the heaviest being 18 tons

one of the book l searched was the TM 9-2800 series of books but could not find a mack type 86 mentioned the EXBX is mentioned several times once stating that it could carry a tank up to 18 tons THE mack LMSW is rated at 15 tons and is

6x4 what l say about the NR4 EXBX AND the LMSW all come from a war department data book date dec 1945 covering

all vehicles still in service with army navy raf at that time

 

 

REGARDS WALLY

[wally dugan]

HI

 

just being lookin for more information on the MACK LMSWs and came across a picture in BART VANDERVEENs book

FIGHTING VEHICLES DIRECTORY world war two page 85 a NR 4 loaded with a M3 STUART LIGHT TANK it is also fitted

with a condenser like the ones in the pictures and looks to be fitted with single tyres all round

 

REGARDS WALLY

[ted angus]

looking at several references including the WW2 Army data book The NR4 tank transporters started life as 10 ton GS and were fitted with uprated springs and replacement bodies for the TTrole.

TED

[RAFMT]

I know! clutching at straws. it's the sort of idea you come up with at 3am while being kicked in the head by an infant!

 

Going to fire off an email to the Mack museum, see if they can help clear up the mystery of the type 86!

[RAFMT]

Well I’ve had a reply from the Mack Museum and done a little extra digging, and it’s looking more and more likely that the mysterious “15 ton, Type 86” is the EXBX, although with a lower rating quoted for whatever reason.

Firstly according to the company records the only military ordered vehicles at the time of the AP I found (late 1940) in that weight range were the 18 ton EXBX and the 10 ton NR1 – it’s unlikely that they would quote the NR1 as being 15 ton and risk it being overloaded and causing damage.

Secondly, as Ted kindly pointed out to me and I have double checked, when the RAF introduced the later system of type numbers to be painted on the doors of vehicles (allegedly for ease of identification) the EXBX2 was allocated a number – 1208 in case you were wondering.

It would appear that the Type 86 designation was something used, possibly by the British Purchasing Commission, to identify different American vehicles as I have also found references to White vehicles with Type numbers instead of other designations at the same time as the Mack Type 86.

Rest assured, the search continues!

[Lewis Garner]

Apologies for resurrecting an old thread but I noticed the talk of Servicing Commandos and had to contribute this. It was brought back from Tunisia by my great-grandfather, who served for a while with 3203 Servicing Commandos. A 25 pdr shell carved and shaped allegedly by one of the locals, a nice little ornament to have.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Regards,

Lewis