andy1960 Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 Hi All been offered a 1945 Bren from a deceased estate but they cannot at present find deac certificate.Can I legally buy this without the cert and get another /copy/recertified ?? Whats the best answer. Regards Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rnixartillery Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 Hi All been offered a 1945 Bren from a deceased estate but they cannot at present find deac certificate.Can I legally buy this without the cert and get another /copy/recertified ?? Whats the best answer.Regards Andy Er.................No ! a Deactivated weapon must have a valid proof house certificate present.buying a weapon without this piece of paper is illegal unless you have the appropriate firearms license which in the case of a bren would be a section 5. You could take the risk but be prepared for any repercussions if you are caught by your local Constabulary.! Rob...................rnixartillery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Suslowicz Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 Er.................No ! a Deactivated weapon must have a valid proof house certificate present.buying a weapon without this piece of paper is illegal unless you have the appropriate firearms license which in the case of a bren would be a section 5.You could take the risk but be prepared for any repercussions if you are caught by your local Constabulary.! Rob...................rnixartillery. Um, if it's been officially deactivated and had a certificate from the Proof House, then I believe you can get a copy certificate issued. It might be worth enquiring about that. (Check the stamps and markings and have the serial number handy - if they've got computerised records it should be a simple lookup.) Obviously, if it's not been stamped by the Proof House it's still a prohibited weapon, with all the potential penalties attached to its possession unless you're a duly authorised person. Chris. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willyslancs Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 Hi All been offered a 1945 Bren from a deceased estate but they cannot at present find deac certificate.Can I legally buy this without the cert and get another /copy/recertified ?? Whats the best answer.Regards Andy interesting question mate , how would someone go on with a replica built with some genuine parts ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Hall Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 Sorry to disagree with the above poster but a deac cert is nothing more than a bit of paper, it has no legal standing. I have about 6 guns with out certs, no worries at all, all you need to do is check that the gun has deac stamps on it and this is your 'deffinate defence to prosecution'. If you want to get a new cert, you need to speak to the proof house and make an appointment, take the gun in, pay your money, wait 30 minutes and then your done. The one thing you need to know about the proof huses are that they are very short on parking and you may have to carry your gun through the street so wrap it well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Suslowicz Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 interesting question mate , how would someone go on with a replica built with some genuine parts ? Errrrr... I don't think I want to go there! The obvious answer is that if _none_ of the "genuine parts" are pressure bearing components (barrel, breech, bolt, etc.) then it's not a firearm under the meaning of the Act. It will fall under the VCR act, so you either paint it a suitable colour or comply with the other reasons for having it. (And you may not be legally able to transfer it to anyone else.) I am not a lawyer (nor do I play one on TV), and don't have anything that would be covered by the VCR act. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Hall Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 Obviously, if it's not been stamped by the Proof House it's still a prohibited weapon, with all the potential penalties attached to its possession unless you're a duly authorised person. Chris. It dosn't have to be stamped to be classed as deactivated. The proof stamps of the Birmingham and London proof houses are the deffinate defence to prosecution, it would be upto the courts to decide on the legality of such a gun (Although you would need to bloody sure to use this excuse). The best example I can think of would be a Bren which has been deactivated to the same standard as current proof house requirements. With the aid of a expert witness, a court would almost certainly dismiss the case, however if the proof specs changed, the non proofed gun may become the subject of another court case. I've not really explained that to well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marmite!! Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 Certificate not required, as long as the Proof Marks are clear, as confirmed by my FEO.. Section 8 of the 1988 Act provides that, unless it can be shown otherwise, a firearm which has been de-activated to a standard approved by the Secretary of State so that it is incapable of discharging any shot, bullet or other missile, is presumed not to be a firearm within the meaning of the 1968 Act and therefore is not subject to control if it bears a mark approved by the Secretary of State for denoting that fact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rnixartillery Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 Several months ago I de-activated two 25 pounder guns and had them removed from my section one firearms license,When the inspector from Birmingham proof house was inspecting the guns he told me that in the near future there was a strong possibility that Firearms licensing in several counties will be checking DE-activated weapons for certification and date related de-activication specification ( If they have been tampered with ). I was Inspected by North Yorkshire Police in January but not for my Live weapons,they were only interested in inspecting my de-ac Artillery. My ship is in order.............................is yours ? Rob......................rnixartillery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Hall Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 Here are some relevant extracts 2.12 Section 8 of the 1988 Act provides that,unless it can be shown otherwise, a firearmwhich has been de-activated to a standardapproved by the Secretary of State so that itis incapable of discharging any shot, bullet or other missile, is presumed not to be a firearm 2.16 Section 8 of the 1988 Act is an evidential provision and does not preclude the possibility that a firearm which has been de-activated in some other manner may also have ceased to be a firearm within the meaning of the 1968 Act. For example, guns held by museums that were recovered from wrecked ships and aircraft may be corroded to the point that they cannot be fired. This should not be confused with wear or missing parts that can be replaced. The final arbiter of whether the article fulfils the definition of a firearm at section 57(1) is a Court. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy1960 Posted March 9, 2012 Author Share Posted March 9, 2012 Sorry..... I was not clear..... all I want to know is it possible to get a copy of the original deac cert if the original one is lost and how to go about it, thats all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Hall Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 Ring either Birmingham proof house 0121 643 3860 or London proof house 02074 812695 and ask for an appointment, wait 30 minutes, pay them and you get a new cert and your gun back. If in the unlikely event it has been messed with, it will need bringing up to current standards before re-proofing. It used to cost about £30 but its bound to have gone up in price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy1960 Posted March 9, 2012 Author Share Posted March 9, 2012 Hmmmmm.....this all seems like I will be taking on someone else's problem......I think I will leave it and wait for something "all present and correct" to turn up.Thanks for the comments Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andym Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 A related question for those who may know - if the weapon was deactivated to old spec, would the proof house simply reissue the certificate or would they deactivate to current spec before doing so? Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Hall Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 The proof house will inspect the gun and if it is still deactivated to the spec of the time (i.e. Old spec pre 95 with a 95 or earlier stamp) then this is enough evidence to re-issue a new cert, if it has been tampered with, it will need to be brought up to current specs to be re-issued with a cert. When a new cert is issued, the gun is also marked with a new mark, I've a few that have the original deac mark and then have a much later mark from when a new cert has been issued. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andym Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 Thanks Chris! Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robin craig Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 Just as an adjunct to this thread, the deactivation in one country doesn't carry over to another. In Canada, we can not import a deac from the UK even with papers unless a firearms dealer with the proper licence does it because it is considered to be "live" until it reaches these shores and has been proven to be deactivated properly. Its a big rigamarole and headache that means that Canadian deacs in the UK like Brens have little value in the UK and all we can do is sit and drool over them. R Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Hall Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 There is a reciprocal agreement over here between a number of European countries that allows the import export of Deacs. The British Government don't want other European deacs in this country so make it very difficult but have yet to take one person to court over it. If it went to court, they run a real risk of being embarrased and then there would be a flood of European deacs into the UK and they don't want that. Having said that, I dont want to be the first so I will only buy British! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 Sorry to butt into this topic but my question is related would the deac mark be two crossed swords or two crosses with a long shaft and short hilt - crossed? I have looked in Ian Skennerton's book for this mark and could not find it, could this be the reason? Dohh! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Hall Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 Thats a Birminham proof mark, the 2 crossed swords appear in a few of their proofs, so its a fair asumption that its the deac mark on your gun. Does it have the letters DA and 2 numbers (the year) with the swords? Letters like MR and the date would indicate a magazine restriction i.e. a smooth bored Lee Enfield on a shotgun cert. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morris c8 fat Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 London were more than helpfull for me but as the de ac was an early speck non UK they arranged for it to be upgraded as well all in all £60. If I remember correctly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 Thats a Birminham proof mark, the 2 crossed swords appear in a few of their proofs, so its a fair asumption that its the deac mark on your gun. Does it have the letters DA and 2 numbers (the year) with the swords? Letters like MR and the date would indicate a magazine restriction i.e. a smooth bored Lee Enfield on a shotgun cert. 'D' on the left side, 'A' on right side and '11' between the crosses below the centre. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marmite!! Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 Proof Marks below.. Don't forget 95 Spec is not the current spec for deativated firearms.. the new Spec is 2010 (see attached) These specifications replace those issued in 1995 and 1989. Additions and alterations to the specifications may be made from time to time in order to ensure that the specifications are properly maintained. deactivation-of-firearms-2010.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 Thank you for a very full answer - I now know that the mark I was puzzling over (I was fixated in 1914-18) is the very important deac mark dated 2011 which keeps my SMLE legal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtistsRifles Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 There is a reciprocal agreement over here between a number of European countries that allows the import export of Deacs. The British Government don't want other European deacs in this country so make it very difficult but have yet to take one person to court over it. If it went to court, they run a real risk of being embarrased and then there would be a flood of European deacs into the UK and they don't want that. Having said that, I dont want to be the first so I will only buy British! This is the problem I have in getting hold of the KVPT heavy machine gun for my OT-90. They are available deactivated in the Czech Republic and Poland for around £700 or less boxed with all the tool kits. But if I go to a UK dealer they more than double that to get it here (cheapest quote I got was £1,500 and the highest was £2,300 - none of the dealers were overly interested in doing this for me) and put through a UK proof house. Freight costs via a specialist firm is only around £100 or - were I prepared to risk it - I could simply drive over, go to the dealer selling them with my passport to prove I am (a) more than 18 years old and (b) an EU resident. They then give me the deactivation certificate and the necessary export paper work and, as far as they are concerned, that is it - the weapon can legally be moved anywhere within the EU. The dealers I've spoken to out there are amazed the UK Gov't will not accept their standards of deactivation. One guy actually burst out laughing for, as he said, the idea of a deactivated weapon more than 6' long that can only be fired electrically and who's weight requires at least 2 men to carry it being reactivated and used for criminal intent is so absurd laughter is the only response he could give.... If the cost to upgrade to the UK spec is only about £60 at most that is £900 total inc. freight- where do the firearms dealers generate the extra £600 + worth of casts from?? Without delving into the dreaded "P" word - if we have to be stuck with all the cr*p that comes out of the EU - why are we denied one of the few good/useful things??? If the Gov't is that paranoid about deactivated weapons why not just issue a special form authorising an overseas purchase that carries the proviso anything brought into the country must go to a proof house for inspection and, if necessary, upgrading within x number of days of it arriving on UK shores and clearing customs so that it can be given a UK certificate to match the one from the country of origin???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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