question nuts and bolts

[bonnie_scott]

Hi,

while doing bits and pieces on my Landrover I am finding the perennial problem of rusted fixings, nuts bolts etc. While I know I am unlikely to reach the standards of many of the restorations detailed on the forum, I would like to at least try and get things right.

 

Whats the view on stainless steel nuts/bolts etc. Having spent some time in the power industry I've heard lots about stress corrosion cracking and inter-granular attack of stainless and the one thing you can guarantee is a corrosive environment and plenty of stress on the nuts and bolts on the underneath of a vehicle.

 

I would be grateful if people could share their, thoughts/knowledge/experience of the different materials on offer for the basic nuts and bolts of a restoration. Should I just replace like with like where corrosion/damage/rounded heads etc. mean that I might not be so lucky if I try and remove something next time, or should I go for stainless and damm the expense (and the fact that they maybe don't look right)?

 

Looking forward to the discussion ahead.

 

Cheers Julian

[mash]

I would replace all damaged nuts/bolts and put god lashings of copper-slip on them, as long as all are to set torque settings or FT! all should be fine come their next removal. Things like my wheel nuts are regularly removed copper-slipped and re torqued.

[rambo1969]

Ive owned land rovers for years now, and just use normal nuts and bolts.

What ive learned is if a nut/bolt is a git to undo, just cut it off and use a new one.

Plenty of copper grease as well.

[Tony B]

Stainless on ali can have some very nasty electrolitic effects. Cooper grease on the bolts into locked nuts , good old cut and change for the rest.

[bonnie_scott]

Thanks to you all for the replies.

 

Standard bolts it is then, seems like decent quantities of lubricant :angel: never goes amiss too......

 

Cheers

[Tony B]

Thanks to you all for the replies.

 

Standard bolts it is then, seems like decent quantities of lubricant :angel: never goes amiss too......

 

Cheers

Land Rovers lubricate there own chassis don't they? Mine always have. :-D

[airportable]

Very lucky with my Airportable that with care very few nut/bolts failed to 'undo'. Bigest stroke of luck at a local vintage veh. show a bloke had bagged (200's) sheridized 1/4x1" UNF bolts only. Turned out label had NSN on and Rover! You any idea how many bolts that size screw into captive nuts, partic. on a tub? He had 25Kg boxes of them as well! Cursing I did not have one, £10.

[paulbrook]

Stainless are fine anywhere except suspension and steering.

[ruxy]

In relationship to corrosion of fixings , there are so many factors regarding "nobility" with Stainless Steel a few clues are here :-

 

http://www.bssa.org.uk/topics.php?article=89

 

Observation of fixing thingies in the real world is good , a lot depends on the local soil and water acidity that sloshes up along with road salt.

 

A good book to get a better understanding is :-

 

 

Stainless fixings do have their place as replacements on Land Rovers as a improvement (and as a long term low cost eradication of trouble) , you just need to take care where you use them. Most of the fixings are going to be "S" or 8.8 grade , try and torque SS up in situations where S / 8.8 are used to correct torque and you will deform the "soft" threads making the most effective lock-nuts you have come across.

 

A good example of this is a Stainless Steel exhaust system , you may think use of SS fixings would be good because you are keeping all parts SS , however the torque normally used to get things lined up and secured for gas tight alignment will deform the threads. Even if you back off on tightening somewhat - you will suffer from what is known as "thread gauling" because you have busted the oxide coating and they will more or less seize / cold weld solid - as bad as rusted. Foliac . Coppaslip / Paul PBC would have limited value.

 

You would probably better off with a SS or BZP (bright zinc plate) bolt with a double-depth brass nut in this situation. You can still obtain brass "manifold" length nuts in UNF for the front pipe to manifold, these cover all the stud thread to stop rust and you can not overtorque & strip the threads - this eliminates all the problems at this position. btw Land Rover on military S3 models specified NR 605090 hex. nuts on manifold studs to the block, these were SS. A civvy LR - would not get these , you would get a MS plated nut - not even a "coppered" nut that many mass produced cars would get. When Unipart had the spares contract - many fixings went over to their common parts bin of low grade fixings - they would ant you to use a GHF201. Land Rover did not like Unipart for this, in fact when LRP&E took over the spares contract using the Caterpillar Desford warehouse - it all went full-circle.

For example , hex. sets for securing your oil-pump Rover would supply blackadized or cadmium plated , Unipart would give you BZP.

 

Bonnet hinge bolts, 330139 , Rover would supply bolts that did not rust uncoated at this location for several years , Unipart would give you BZP that may stay rust free for 6 weeks with a few microns flash zinc (unless you spilt some Coke on that would strip the zinc in under 48 hours).

 

Generally Land Rover selected , Galvanized (hot spun) , beware of dry galvanized fixings that can almost pass for hot spun , Sheradized , passivated or chemical blackadized - depending on where it is used and what it is liable to be attacked by.

 

You need to learn how to identify finish, locate at lowest cost , and isolate dissimilar metals with messy chromate paste or a plastic washer barrier - too time consuming for Solihull assembly , this way you should stop your aluminium returning to white dust oxides.

 

------------

 

So , to get back to the point , if you wish your restoration project to last as long as yourself - all a matter of identification , depending where Land Rover used various qualities of fixings surface treatment.

Edited January 11, 2012 by ruxy
speling

[Diana and Jackie]

Hi,

 

There is indeed a stainless steel grade bolt/nut which can be used in place of steel high tensile nuts/bolts they are however not run of the mill, extremely expsnsive and only justifiable in marine enviroments.

 

The golden rule is to use high tensile steel fixings on any part that is stressed, engine mountings, drive shafts, suspension, steering, engine to gearbox fixings, brake fitments etc.

 

Elsewhere where there are no high stresses involved stainless can be used but with care. A number of people have suggested using copper grease, this is fine as long as the part you are screwing into is compatable, copper and aluminium are not. So copper grease on a spark plug screwed into an aluminium cylinder head is not a good idea, instead a dab of high melting point grease.

 

Where you can use copper grease, and if not a proprietry grease. The parts that must not be greased under any circumstance are wheel nuts.

 

The best protection for steel nuts and bolts is hot dip galvanising priming and painting, or electroplating, yellow passivating followed by a coat or two of suitable primer (etch primer?) then a few coats of top coat.

 

If you look at ex mod equipment including vehicles where nuts and bolts have been used and the original finish exists you will see most nuts and bolts have been yellow passivated.

 

D&J

 

 

 

Hi,

while doing bits and pieces on my Landrover I am finding the perennial problem of rusted fixings, nuts bolts etc. While I know I am unlikely to reach the standards of many of the restorations detailed on the forum, I would like to at least try and get things right.

 

Whats the view on stainless steel nuts/bolts etc. Having spent some time in the power industry I've heard lots about stress corrosion cracking and inter-granular attack of stainless and the one thing you can guarantee is a corrosive environment and plenty of stress on the nuts and bolts on the underneath of a vehicle.

 

I would be grateful if people could share their, thoughts/knowledge/experience of the different materials on offer for the basic nuts and bolts of a restoration. Should I just replace like with like where corrosion/damage/rounded heads etc. mean that I might not be so lucky if I try and remove something next time, or should I go for stainless and damm the expense (and the fact that they maybe don't look right)?

 

Looking forward to the discussion ahead.

 

Cheers Julian

[paulbrook]

Interesting discussion here about corrosion. Shame landrover didnt take a blind bit of notice when it came to putting birmabright skins on steel door frames.......

[ruxy]

A good question , probably cost reduction , construction had already changed at start of S2 (less durable). Possibly such as as Sika tube or bulk sealant not available (chromate paste was). A real good coat of their paint (that was a stoved finish) on the frame prior to painting would have prevented panel perforation longer.

 

Interesting - I first through drilled (using a long drill through 2 walls where required) to gain access for injecting Ensis fluid into Lightweight doors late 1970's. I purchased some Ex-Dutch NOS Lightweight doors about Y2K (never issued / never fitted) - I laughed , cursory examination revealed that the Cloggie Military were in fact re-furbishing brand new Land Rover parts such as the doors - they had done exactly as I had BUT they sealed their drilled holes with a small plastic plug after injection ! They had also allowed the preservation fluid to drain down every inner face as a barrier between the alloy skin & steel frame (that I had also done). Obviously it takes about 1/2 hour per door to do this. I have never examined a Dutch Series door top , one presumes they followed the same procedure . I do - it will add years of life esp. when you renew the glass runner strips and coat the channel - all a bit too messy for production workers or somebody earning a crust.

 

Incidently - the mastic strip used to seal the floor plates / transmission tunnel etc. Grey / White colour , for years I used what seemed to be the exact stuff - manufactured by 3M (body panel tape) , they have stopped manufacture of this product AFAIK , there must be similar alternative makes , however body shops just use the caulking gun now with probably a cheapish mastic. You just have to hope some PO has not used a Sika bonding adhesive on your floor plates / transmission cover LoL

Edited January 12, 2012 by ruxy
spellin

[bonnie_scott]

Thanks again for all the replies, much food for thought. Also been surfing the net to see what info is around about Stainless Fixings. Given everything I have found it would appear that sticking with the the original spec is best in most cases. Thanks for the pointer on the book, now have a copy winging its way to me in the post.

 

Who would have thought it, £0.01 for the book and £2.80 for P+P amazon marketplace is a wonderful thing