question British Tank/Reconnaissance crew uniforms 1960-1980

[cellstar]

Hello all,

 

Could anyone advise on what would have been worn by the crew uniform wise of a Ferret scout car during those periods and if there would be any differences between the uniforms of the crew members (driver, commander etc ?)

 

(bit of background) will be going to a few shows this year with my Brother who owns the Ferret and while we're not looking to re-enact any specific setup don't really want to show up in jeans and trainers either :-D )

 

Thanks all in advance

[Peter4456]

Hello,

 

Green 'lightweight' trousers, green shirt, 'woolly pully', DPM jacket, DMS boots and puttees would cover the 70s and 80s for Ferret crews, but they're becoming quite difficult to find now. Green overalls (or black for RTR) would also be correct for this period.

 

If you want to achieve a generally correct look reasonably cheaply (and comfortably!), I'd go for Soldier 95 shirt & trousers, green t shirt and assault boots. All available easily and really look the part.

 

I know it's only my opinion, but I'm always surprised that some MV people spend years & £1000s restoring vehicles to an incrediblely high standard and then show them wearing jeans and a t shirt! It's easy (without going down the hardcore reenacting route!) to achieve a generally military look quite cheaply. I say again - it's only my opinion!!

 

Peter,

 

Ferret Mk 2/3, 03 CC 42

[ferretfixer]

I joined in '74 & served through with the Regular Army until 1985. Green 1960 pattern combats were the order of the day in the field until the introduction of DPM Cammo combats. I was issued one (of my Two) 1960 pattren jacket in DPM cammo! DPM Cammo has continued to be used right upto the intro of Soldier '95 Patt clothing. WAY past the exit of the Feret from Military Service. So you could get away with any DPM Cammo clothing just to get a 'Military Blend' if you like.

 

The first unit I was attached to was an Armoured Engineer Unit. DPM COMBATS were ALWAYS worn in the field on Manouvers & on Ranges Etc. The only time I saw Lightweight Trousers worn was by the Unit Cooks, who had got thier DPM trousers grubby through the constant type of hard work they gave the unit.

Olive green lightweights were 'Backup' for them. Some units had different policies, so I cannot comment on that from a personal viewpoint.

 

Correct, in that RTR units wore Black coveralls, though I have seen DPM combats in winter when it was cold! Other unit Ferret & 432 Drivers got hold of the Tan one peice twin zippered coveralls. They were Khaki blanket lined & lovely & warm! If you can source a set, use them to drive to shows. They will keep you warm!

Just my opinion & actual Service Expirience. Hope it helps you?

Mike.

[cellstar]

Many thanks for the replies, will take your advice to the surplus store and see what they have on offer. Cheers.

[oily]

Depending how local to portsmouth you are, I bought from 'Sabre Sales' Army Surplus, a modern AFV Crewmans Overall, which has a sort of sewn-in 'rescue harness' in it, -£25, in new, un-issued condition, they are similar colour to lightweights,but of a thicker material than normal overalls and very close in construction to the 'tankie-suits' mentioned in an earlier post, also a darn sight easier to get hold of, unless you are about 5' tall, -I'm 6' 1", and I've been looking for a genuine '50's - '60's 'tankie suit, for about 5 years!--can't find any! The modern ones are very, very comfortable to wear, either with shorts and 'T' shirt under for summer use, or long sleeves and lightweights/jeans etc under for cold/winter days.... i wear mine when driving my Saracen around(I tend to warm up quickly, since I sit astride the gearbox, and to the rear of the engine).... well worth the money! PM me if you need any more details.... oh, they also do D.P.M. camouflage ones too!

[AlienFTM]

Normal working dress in the RAC during the period was coveralls (green for cavalry, black for RTR), aka denims (note that in other arms "denims" referred to green jeans: in the cavalry it referred to coveralls).

 

Each RAC regiment had its accoutrements to distinguish it. For example, in the field 15th/19th The King's Royal Hussars wore navy terry scarves. (Take a hand towel, cut it in half lengthways and bingo: one regimental scarf as sold by the PRI. Note that this creates a quite bulky scarf. A number of soldiers would cut this in half or more, reducing the scarf to little more than a necktie.)

 

In a sabre troop in the field (bear in mind that recce troops converted to CVR(T) in the mid-70s) I'd expect denims always to be worn.

 

In the RAC following the introduction of CVR(T), Ferrets became the domain of Squadron and Regimental Sergeants Major, rebroadcast Ferrets and liaison officers, but these were always Mark 1s.

 

The Mark 2 remained in sabre squadron service with the Cyprus Armoured Car Squadron based across the two Sovereign Base Areas. This squadron was an 18-month independent squadron tour filled from a usually UK-based regiment and soldiers wore their normal regimental accoutrements. ISTR these Ferrets were NATO olive / black.

 

The UNFICYP Force Reserve Squadron (a six-month tour based in Nicosia) also used Mark 2 Ferrets, but were painted gloss white and soldiers wore UN accoutrements (sky blue beret and silk scarf and UN badge on the arm). 15/19H provided both these armoured car squadrons between 1975 and 1977, C Sqn out of the SBAs, B then A with UNFICYP.

 

Drivers were expected always to wear coveralls while on vehicles. The rank and role of Ferret commanders meant that they often did not wear denims. In this case the correct dress was Shirt KF, green wooly pully, combat jacket (well washed and faded), lightweight trousers DMS Boots and puttees.

 

However, outside of camp, uniform was not rigorously enforced (in 15/19H certainly). Listed in no particular order are common variations :

 

The KF shirt was never popular. Soldiers normally acquired spare No 2 Dress shirts (either from QM or look-alikees from NAAFI). We were issued OG shirts in Cyprus which were not unlike the later GS Shirts (outside your stated scope) and made of Aertex IIRC. Worn in the field until they fell off our backs - and we were issued lots because Cyprus could be hot even in winter.

 

Lightweight trousers. NEVER combat trousers in the RAC: they were for guard duty only. In Cyprus we were issued Trousers OG, similar to lightweights but heavier material and with button flies and an unusual fastening mechanism where two straps crossed over (one passing through a hole in the other) and buckled at the sides. Again, these were retained at EOT and worn to destruction.

 

Boots. Command Troop 15/19H all looked at US combat boots (higher leg saved having to wear puttees). I didn't personally because it was not possible to get boots wide enough for my feet. Boots NI which had been issued for a recent tour (just like DMS but with higher leg: no puttees). Helicopter pilot boots. I personally wore Bundeswehr Panzerstiefel: sheepskin-lined jackboots as issued to Leopard crews. Basically anything black and comfortable, but Doc Martens were frowned upon.

 

Gloves. NI gloves were retained after tours. Gloves combat (very similar) were introduced in the very late 70s. Again, anything in black leather was tolerated. The PRI sold ski gloves: I rode a motor bike and wore giant civvy black motorcycle gaunlets.

 

Looking back at this post, if you want to show a Mark 2 Ferret, your best bet is pre-DPM combats (fatigues as the Americans would say), since the 1970s options for the Mark 2 Ferret are limited.

Edited April 21, 2010 by AlienFTM
typo

[Bazz]

I used to wear my black one piece motercycle oversuit over my uniform when commanding my Ferret, due to the vast amount of parcipitation in the Emerald Isle.

[Ian0263]

Alien FTM - you forgot the Dark Blue Polo necks...

[andym]

I scored a brand new set of AFV overalls, still sealed in their packet, for £12 on eBay last week!

 

Andy

[Ian0263]

What type? If they were Velcro fastened, they're no good for 1980, unfortunately

[AlienFTM]

Alien FTM - you forgot the Dark Blue Polo necks...

 

The Navy polo neck came in about 1980. When you took your scarf off and put it back on, it automatically adjusted and looked as suave and sophisticated as only cavalry do (remember the main purpose of cavalry in warfare is to bring style and panache to what would otherwise just be an ugly brawl). When you wore your polo neck for a week at a time, the neck stretched like a wizard's sleeve and was a CENSORED disgrace.

 

I did NOT forget the navy polo neck, I deliberately omitted it.

 

;o)

[andym]

What type? If they were Velcro fastened, they're no good for 1980, unfortunately

 

None of that new-fangled stuff, they've got a front zip!

 

Andy

[wdbikemad]

Of note, is the fact that the velcro-affixed coveralls were originally a RAF item........first issued in grey polyester, with a dark blue collar and epaulettes, these appeared in the early 70s replacing the previous pattern in blue-grey cotton-drill with rubber buttons (also produced for the Army in green - I have a pair of sealed-pattern coveralls for these "universal" items, the set I have being green but cunningly supplied with an attached swatch of RAF blue-grey drill for manufacturers reference....I think the set is dated 1961..??).......the velcro was to avert any FOD hazard on airfields caused by lost buttons........

 

The Army had their own pattern in green polyester/cotton, secured by small press-fasteners, first introduced around 72-73 (trialed in 70-71)......a version in black was produced for the RTR and also adopted by MoD Police for firearms training and dog handlers............

 

Around the mid-80s the RAF version was tactically changed to olive drab but otherwise identical to the earlier grey version in detail (though no blue collar and epaulettes)..........

 

During the early 90s this version was subsequently adopted by the Army too, replacing the press-stud Army pattern.....

 

Not sure about the black RTR version though.....I haven't seen any RAF pattern coveralls in black so this may suggest that the older Army pattern coveralls in black for RTR use remain in production and issue...?

 

Interestingly, anyone seen the dark-blue cotton REME coveralls for use by (largely apprentice) welders and air mechanics, supposedly fire-resistant...?

Edited December 19, 2012 by wdbikemad

[Ian0263]

The Navy polo neck came in about 1980. When you took your scarf off and put it back on, it automatically adjusted and looked as suave and sophisticated as only cavalry do (remember the main purpose of cavalry in warfare is to bring style and panache to what would otherwise just be an ugly brawl). When you wore your polo neck for a week at a time, the neck stretched like a wizard's sleeve and was a CENSORED disgrace.

 

I did NOT forget the navy polo neck, I deliberately omitted it.

 

;o)

Don't I know it - The Guards, then The Empire and Finally The Enemy...

[Ian0263]

Interestingly, anyone seen the dark-blue cotton REME coveralls for use by (largely apprentice) welders and air mechanics, supposedly fire-resistant...?

The Welders in our LAD wore them...

[singaeger]

For period photos of ferrets & crew in service withthe West Kent Yeomanry

 

see this link

 

http://daimler-fighting-vehicles.co.uk/roc.html

 

hit the PDF symbol at the bottom of the page headed 'Lothianand Border Horse' etc

 

 

while im on here.....does anyone recognize this vehicle pennant?