MK or MJ ?

[Big Al]

I am thinking of buying a MK/MJ which would be the best?

It will need to be downrated or derated how easy will this be and what paperwork would be need?

If down rated I beleve from reading on here that it would come under the MOT testing and not LGV/HGV testing is this correct?

There was one on milweb last week looked very good but was sold very quickly, has anyone on here have one for sale or are thinking of selling one?

Alec

Edited March 17, 2010 by Big Al

[LoggyDriver]

It all depends what year you want. The MK is the non turbo version with a multi fuel engine, the MJ is the newer turbo'd version without the multi fuel engine (diesel only)

 

Down plating would only work on a cargo or flat platform really, as a box would add too much weight I would imagine?

 

I have seen one cargo MJ fitted out as a "Motor Caravan". Under the tilt the guy built a plywood box with a door fitted at the back, all under the tilt. He then permanently fitted the back with a bed, cooker, sink etc and registered it as a Motor Caravan. This I believe is a class 4 MOT, the same as a car, and was also downrated to 7.5ton so he could drive it on his car licence. All Motor Caravans are the same MOT regardless of weight.

[Stone]

Down plating would only work on a cargo or flat platform really, as a box would add too much weight I would imagine?

It would be just doable with a half-length box, but you wouldn't have much space/weight budget to play with for fittings etc. Not sure but aren't you forbidden to carry a load while it's registered as a caravan? Would render it a bit pointless if you could only use half the bed...

 

Stone

[LoggyDriver]

It would be just doable with a half-length box, but you wouldn't have much space/weight budget to play with for fittings etc. Not sure but aren't you forbidden to carry a load while it's registered as a caravan? Would render it a bit pointless if you could only use half the bed...

 

Stone

 

 

 

Hi Stone,

 

Yeah, your not allowed to carry a load. You are allowed to carry goods or burden that are for living purposes, so clothes, boots, push bike, food etc are allowed. The design of the interior should be such that you aren't "able" to carry a load, that's why the stated items must be permanently fitted to the bed and/or sides of the vehicle. The bonus doing it this way is that you don't need to fit side or rear impact protection or a tachograph. The guy I'm talking about has a 1989 AWD Bedford MJ. It should be down at Trucks and Troops if your going down to that show as that's where I was chatting to the guy last year.

[antarmike]

It would be just doable with a half-length box, but you wouldn't have much space/weight budget to play with for fittings etc. Not sure but aren't you forbidden to carry a load while it's registered as a caravan? Would render it a bit pointless if you could only use half the bed...

 

Stone

 

There is no taxation class "Caravan",, nor "Motor Caravan" so you cannot register a Bedford as a Caravan. (Although used as a caravan, a vehicle over 3500 kgs would normally be taxed as PHGV, a motor Caravan under 3500 would be resistered as PLG)

 

Hi Stone,

 

Yeah, your not allowed to carry a load. You are allowed to carry goods or burden that are for living purposes, so clothes, boots, push bike, food etc are allowed. The design of the interior should be such that you aren't "able" to carry a load, that's why the stated items must be permanently fitted to the bed and/or sides of the vehicle. The bonus doing it this way is that you don't need to fit side or rear impact protection or a tacho

 

I am not sure that this is correct. Any Motor Vehicle, first use after 1. 1. 84. with Max gross weight over 3500 Kgs needs side and rear bars.

 

There are exemptions but I can't see one that covers the vehicle as described here.

 

Tacho info is correct, Motorhomes do not need a tacho if the V5 shows body type as Motor Caravan, and it is fully fitted out as such.

 

Depending on taxation class, you are allowed to carry a load. If taxation class is "historic vehicle" , then you cannot carry a load. But Bedford probabaly too young for Historic. If registered PHGV then you can carry your own goods. (but this need Tacho fitted and being used.)

 

What year of first use is the Bedford in question?

 

http://www.ukmotorhomes.net/motorhome-faqs.shtml#Licences

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/DriverLicensing/WhatCanYouDriveAndYourObligations/DG_10037875

 

Depending upon whether it is downrated or not you will need a class C1 or a class C licence to drive it.

Edited March 18, 2010 by antarmike

[antarmike]

.......

I have seen one cargo MJ fitted out as a "Motor Caravan". Under the tilt the guy built a plywood box with a door fitted at the back, all under the tilt. He then permanently fitted the back with a bed, cooker, sink etc and registered it as a Motor Caravan. This I believe is a class 4 MOT, the same as a car, and was also downrated to 7.5ton so he could drive it on his car licence. All Motor Caravans are the same MOT regardless of weight.

Again you cannot "Register" a vehicle as a Motor Caravan. It is not a taxation class.

 

You can have the "body type" changed to "Motor Caravan" on the V5, but it will be registered and taxed as PHGV.

Motor Caravan can be viewed as Living Vans by some testing stations, if there is any suspicion that any goods are being carried.

 

For a class IV test the owner has to declare to the tester that no goods are being carried, and the body type on the V5 has to be motor caravan.

 

If any Goods are carried the vehicle is not viewed as a Motor Caravan, but as a Living Van, and the test is then a class VII.

Edited March 19, 2010 by antarmike

[antarmike]

You don't fancy this TM with crane on Milweb?

http://milweb.net/classifieds/large_image.php?ad=50721&cat=4

[fesm_ndt]

I like this, but the steering is on the wrong side

 

http://www.shropshiregunbus.co.uk/item.asp?pid=87

 

looks the part though

[protruck]

Hi Mike.

 

I know this Tm that's on milwebs and the guy that owns it. The vehicle is very clean and tidy, and well worth the money in my oppinion. a very useable truck. and a reluctant sale.

 

 

Clive

............................................

protruckservices.com

[Metroman]

Just a small update on your side bar comment Mike - spoke to VOSA tect guy Friday & bars do not need fitting on trucks dated before 01.04.84 :-X

[antarmike]

Just a small update on your side bar comment Mike - spoke to VOSA tect guy Friday & bars do not need fitting on trucks dated before 01.04.84 :-X

 

Yes April is the date given for rear bars in traffic officers Handbook. Date shown for Side Bars is Jan. Probably a typo, I will check.

 

Jan Date for sidebars first used by Gordon Wilson in my 1981 edition, and it is still Jan in the 2008 edition. Both editions show April as date for rear bars. If Jan is a mistake, it has been in his book undetected/uncorrected for 27 years.

 

Oddly the date for compulsory fitting of rear bars on trailers over 1020 Kgs unladen is 1-5-1983. The same date applies for side bars on trailers.

 

Are you sure you haven't been given the date for rear bars , instead of the date for side bars by mistake?

 

I do wish C and U was on the OPSI site.

Edited March 28, 2010 by antarmike

[Metroman]

..fair point, you ask a question 'what date do side bars need to be fitted from'!!! & you expect the answer to be correct - should have take the reg. no......

[Big Al]

Mike

Would I be correct if I bought a pre 1984 April MJ it will not need to have side or rear bars fitted to comply with the MOT if down rated to 7.5 tons, If post 1984 will have to be fitted with side and rear bars also would be able to carrie cargo has long it dons not execed the gross weight if taxed has a PHGV for pre and post 84?

Al

Edited March 28, 2010 by Big Al

[antarmike]

Mike

Would I be correct if I bought a pre 1984 April MJ it will not need to have side or rear bars fitted to comply with the MOT if down rated to 7.5 tons, If post 1984 will have to be fitted with side and rear bars also would be able to carrie cargo has long it dons not execed the gross weight if taxed has a PHGV for pre and post 84?

Al

 

Downrating doesn't come into it, whether downrated or left at present Max gross weight side bars, rear bars are needed after a given date. The regs say any motor vehicle whose max gross weight exceeds 3.5 Tonnes needs both side and rear bars if constructed after a certain date. You will not be able to downrate to less than 3.5 Tonnes MGW, surely?

 

The crucial thing is the date.

 

The date for rear bars is definitely 1-4-1984 or later.

The date for side bars is either 1-1-1984 or 1-4-1984 , but which date is correct has yet to be confirmed.

Any goods vehicle can carry cargo up to its max weight, if it has a suitable vehicle excise disc. PHGV allows you to carry goods but not for hire and reward.

Edited March 28, 2010 by antarmike

[Grumpy]

Different dates for vehicles and trailers, for an MJ both siderails and under-run are, vehicles used from 1st April 1984.

War and peace from VOSA regarding Siderails and Under-run protection:

Sideguards – Application:

· Motor Vehicles first used from 1 April 1984 with a design gross weight exceeding 3,500kg and where the distance between the centres of any two consecutive axles exceeds 3m.

· Trailers manufactured from 1 May 1983 with an unladen weight exceeding 1,020kg and where the distance between the centres of any two consecutive axles exceeds 3m; or in the case of a semi-trailer, where the distance between the centre of the kingpin position and the centre of the foremost axle exceeds 4.5m.

· Semi-Trailers manufactured before 1 May 1983 which have a design gross weight exceeding 26,000kg and which form part of an articulated vehicle with a design gross train weight exceeding 32,520kg and where the distance between the centre of the kingpin and the centre of the foremost axle exceeds 4.5m. Where more than one kingpin is fitted it is the distance from the rearmost position which is taken into account.

Sideguards – Exemptions:

· A vehicle or trailer constructed so that it can be unloaded by part of the vehicle being tipped sideways or rearwards.

· A vehicle or trailer designed solely for use in connection with street cleaning, the collection/ disposal of refuse or the contents of gullies/ cesspools. (Skip carrying vehicles are classed as refuse vehicles and as such are exempt).

· A trailer specially designed and constructed, and not merely adapted, to carry round timber, beams or girders, being items of exceptional length.

· Tractor units.

· A vehicle or trailer specially designed and constructed, and not merely adapted to carry other vehicles loaded onto it from the front or rear. (Vehicles with a standard flat body fitted with a "beaver tail" are not exempt).

· A trailer with a load platform which is not more than 750mm from the ground throughout that part of its length under which a sideguard would have to be fitted.

· A semi-trailer incorporating a sliding bogie.

· A rigid motor vehicle or trailer designed for and constructed for the special purpose of carrying long (but not exceptionally long) timbers from an off road location in a forest.

Under-run – Application:

 

• Motor Vehicles with a design gross weight exceeding 3,500kg and first used from 1 April 1984; or Trailers manufactured from 1 May 1983 with an unladen weight exceeding 1,020kg.
  

Under-run – Exemptions:

 

• Tractor units.
  

 

• A vehicle or trailer fitted at the rear with apparatus specially designed for spreading material on a road.
  

 

• A vehicle or trailer so constructed that it can be unloaded by part of the vehicle being tipped rearwards.
  

 

• A vehicle or trailer specially designed and constructed, and not merely adapted, to carry other vehicles loaded onto it from the rear. (Vehicles with a standard flat body fitted with a "beaver tail'' are not exempt).
  

 

• A trailer specially designed and constructed, and not merely adapted, to carry round timber, beams or girders, being items of exceptional length.
  

 

• A vehicle or trailer fitted with a tail lift so constructed that a lift platform, with a minimum length of 1m, forms part of the floor of the vehicle.
  

 

• A vehicle specially designed, and not merely adapted, for the carriage and mixing of concrete.
  

 

[antarmike]

I shall have to edit Gordon Wilson's book then. (it is not the first mistake it has contained, but I am surprised it has been there for 27 years!

[dan]

Hi guys, in Ireland the rear under run & side bars is Jan '85. I was thinking that if you took off the flatbed and made your own fixings for a fiber glass box you could easily come under 7.5ton and the vehicle would perform better at the lower weight either off road and on sand or on the road and up hills!

 

IT'S BETTER TO BURN OUT THAN FADE AWAY!

Edited March 28, 2010 by dan

[Big Al]

Let get back to the subject

Mike how will it stand if the mj is fitted with a winch would it become a recovery truck? If so what would be the reqirement for MOT for it?

Sidebars need to be fitted to post 1/4/84 and not to pre 1/4/84 req has anyone got the spectifcation for the bars IE location for fitting,matiral ect, can they be fitted with quick release so the truck can be used off road and refitted for road use.

Alec

[antarmike]

Let get back to the subject

Mike how will it stand if the mj is fitted with a winch would it become a recovery truck? If so what would be the reqirement for MOT for it?

Sidebars need to be fitted to post 1/4/84 and not to pre 1/4/84 req has anyone got the spectifcation for the bars IE location for fitting,matiral ect, can they be fitted with quick release so the truck can be used off road and refitted for road use.

Alec

A recovery truck is only a recovery truck if it is taxed recovery, and only used for recovery. It must have a lifting device to raise the wheels of a casualty off the road. Having a winch doesn't satisfy the conditions to make it a recovery truck.

 

http://hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/showthread.php?17339-Novice-needs-your-help-(-Bedford-MJ-crash-rails)

Edited April 5, 2010 by antarmike

[N.O.S.]

More to the point - what would be the benefit since this is one category of vehicle shortly due to require an MOT when the new proposals come into effect!

 

I think there are several trucks out here with pinned side bars which are removed for off-roading or rally purposes so you should be ok with that.

[Marmite!!]

Thread cleaned up, back on Topic.. similar comments suggesting a disregard to the law as posted previously will be removed without notice. If anyone has a problem with this please take it to Private Message.

[dan]

Everybody makes such a big thing about the side bars on these vehicles, truth be told there is plenty o ground clearence as they are higher than the axels and around the same hieght as other gear fitted spare tyre, fuel tanks, generator & boxes for stowing gear - gas bottles, tools etc. You can fit removable side bars either by pin or bolts are no problem as you could remove them in double quick time as you have a connection for an air hose! If this is no good I suppose you could always extend the wheelbase and fit some monster truck wheels.

You could reach the parts no bedford truck has gon before - I would rather take it easy sit back and watch that one and let the beers reach the parts. CHEERS!!

[Grumpy]

Ok lets be sensible here, but could someone explain the purpose of side protection and under run protection and how it affects vehicle safety?

Mods – if you feel it correct you can move this post to a new thread.

[alan turner (RIP)]

the side bars are simply to stop cars from driving straight under the wagon taking the roof and passengers heads therin off the car, or a cyclist /motor cyclist from fallling under rear wheels and having to be hosed out from between the rear tyres similar reason for rear bars. Vickie Butler henderson was taught on 5th gear how to drive under an artic and live, most of us dont have that facility. Jayne Mansfield and her husband died in that way before bars developed.

[antarmike]

the side bars are simply to stop cars from driving straight under the wagon taking the roof and passengers heads therin off the car, or a cyclist /motor cyclist from fallling under rear wheels and having to be hosed out from between the rear tyres similar reason for rear bars. Vickie Butler henderson was taught on 5th gear how to drive under an artic and live, most of us dont have that facility. Jayne Mansfield and her husband died in that way before bars developed.

Exactly as stated, but in addition to the safety of OTHER road users (which is the primary reason for them being fitted) they offer some protection to the vehicle to which they are fitted, since these bars also (to some extent) protect fuel tanks on the vehicles to which they are fitted. If an Accident happens, Fuel sloshing everywhere is not a good idea. And in extreme cases, they prevent a vehicle getting under the rear wheels, which could cause the lorry to ride up and flip onto its side.

Edited April 7, 2010 by antarmike

[griff66]

i would imagine ducking down would be a good starting point!