news Bomber Harris - waste of time

[Jack]

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Sir Arthur "Bomber" Harris, the wartime head of Bomber Command, privately dismissed the Dambuster air raids on German dams were a waste of men and aircraft, it has been revealed.

[Tony B]

Yes the damage and effect were not as much as predicted. But it gave national morale a major boost, developed new techniques and Barnes- Wallis went on to develop Tallboy and Grand slam.

[woa2]

I had heard that Bomber Harris disaproved of any scheme that deviated from carpet bombing Germany and the Ruhr, as he believed this was the only way to win the war. Even giving Bomber support to D-Day was looked down on. Can't remember where I read or heard about this - anyone help?

[berna2vm]

I personally believe Harris's policies were unsound and tended to boost morale when manipulated by Goebbel's propaganda machine. The only losers were predominantly women and children. The Dambusters acts was gallant and justified with a good degree of success to boot. Bomber Harris's statue in London should be replaced with one of Keith Park, Who with Hugh Dowding were the architects of the defeat of the Luftwaffe in 1940.

The bravery of the bomber crews was beyond question but I believe they would have been utilised more effectively deployed against military and manufacturing facilities. The bombing of Dresden in the final days of the war in 1945 is one thing that I almost consider as a war crime.

I hope this does not cause any controversy,but it is my opinion.

[woa2]

The bombing of Dresden in the final days of the war in 1945 is one thing that I almost consider as a war crime.

 

 

I believe the bombing of Dresden was part of a plan to stop Germany from being able to cause another war. Can anyone confirm/deny this?

[Tony B]

I had heard that Bomber Harris disaproved of any scheme that deviated from carpet bombing Germany and the Ruhr, as he believed this was the only way to win the war. Even giving Bomber support to D-Day was looked down on. Can't remember where I read or heard about this - anyone help?

 

Several of the better historys of the campain give this opinion.

[Adam Elsdon]

The Nazi's had invaded the majority of europe, even near the end they were still a force to be reckoned with, and they had exterminated millions.

"Hindsight" is a wonderful thing.

[berna2vm]

The Nazi's had invaded the majority of europe, even near the end they were still a force to be reckoned with, and they had exterminated millions.

"Hindsight" is a wonderful thing.

I do agree with you Adam.

However, by mid February 1945 they were very much a spent force and no longer one to be reckoned with.Most of the Allied chiefs had come to realise that "area bombing" of civilian so called targets was no longer beneficial to the war effort,and a waste of resources.

Winston Churchill distanced himself from this particular action between February 13-15th because of the barbarity of it.

This particular act was another example of cow-towing to a man who was probably the most evil tyrant of the 20th century... Josef Stalin. Dieppe and Ancona, Italy are just a couple of examples of the western allies attempts to appease him,however the jewel is the shameful way that we succomed to pressure and allowed the red army to take Berlin, atrocities Personally ordered by Stalin himself including mass rape and murder.

To the victor the spoils,and the power to have the history books written how you choose.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing,but in this case most knew it was wrong at the time.

If Nazi Germany had won the war,Arthur Harris would probably have been tried for war crimes!

[AndyFowler]

Don't think the Nazis would have had a court decide mate ! We can't judge what was thought to be neccesary at the time because we never suffered the horrors of the war ! Thank God !

[Adam Elsdon]

Don't think the Nazis would have had a court decide mate ! We can't judge what was thought to be neccesary at the time because we never suffered the horrors of the war ! Thank God !

 

Absolutely on the nail Andy.

[Desert Rat]

The bravery of the bomber crews was beyond question but I believe they would have been utilised more effectively deployed against military and manufacturing facilities. The bombing of Dresden in the final days of the war in 1945 is one thing that I almost consider as a war crime.

I hope this does not cause any controversy,but it is my opinion.

 

Berna,

This is a view which over time, has to be expected and rightly so.

However, a large majority of writers have produced books on Dresden and each author has tried to give his own slant on the proceedings. 20,30,40 and even 60 years after the event, people start to use previous writings as 'fact' despite them often being the personal view of an author.

 

The facts however (from war diaries, logs, Red Cross figures etc of the time) show things in a different light.

Firstly, the Germans were not a 'spent force'. Their land and air superiority may well have been such, but try telling the people in London and the south coast that the germans were 'spent' as hundreds died as the V-2's came over. Put yourself in the shoes of someone who's street has just been levelled and has lost many friends and members of your family....

On the dates of the main Dresden raid (12/13 Feb 45') 16 'V' weapons were fired and impacted on England.

In March alone, an average of 10 V-2's were fired each day from the base at Statenkwartier.

The V-2's didn't stop falling on England until nearly April 1945.

In total, 1358 V-2 impacted on London and a further 44 on Ipswich and Norwich.

This is NOT including V-1's.....

 

The figures given as casulaties in Dresden are also wildly exaggerated.

When interviewed, Albert Speer said that Goebbels told Hitler that the Dresden raid was an 'opportunity too good to miss' (There were a lot of POW's in the area and he saw it as a chance to indicate that the allies had scored an own goal) and he said that the figures of 15-25,000 dead (original German sources) would be announced as 150-250,000.....

So called historians, eager to make a name for themselves have jumped onto this and are happy to quote figures (sometimes even more than this) which came from the head of Third Reich propaganda !!

However, lets not forget, be it Dresden, Berlin, Hamburg, London, Coventry etc even a single life lost in war is a life too many.

No one will ever know the true number, but educated guesses put the figure somewhere between 20 and 40,000 people lost their lives in Dresden over 3 days (not on a single raid as often reported)

 

The single most evocative and lasting image to any member of Bomber Command who flew on these raids (and i have spoken to nearly a dozen) was the intensity of the fire storm. Thats what they remember most.

Anyway, as i have said, one life lost is one too many but as far as history goes, factual history and not the history to make a name for ones self and a good profit on the way, the IWM researchers and various leading historians are trying to rectify a long and growing myth surrounding Dresden.

 

By the way, the USAAF were due to bomb in daylight first, but bad weather prevented it so the RAF went in at night and the Americans followed up the day after. I wonder how 'history' would have been written if the original plan had gone ahead ?.....

 

As for 'war crimes' ? Isn't any war a crime ?

 

Regards, DR

[Tony B]

Very thoughtful DR. You are right, anytime you read a book, no matter how good or respected the authour, you are always getting the authours opinion.

[Maurice]

I Agree the Germans were no spent Army at that time , The Dutch in 1940 were , but they still bombed Rotterdam for no reason , So if you see footage of all these Gatterings in Germany During the war , and the Proppaganda Ministers shouts "Do you want a totall war " all the crowd shout back is Jawohl. A few months after Dresden they all suddenly said Wir haben es nicht gewuBt , and were complaining about Dresden . Every way to Shorten the War and save allied soldiers , is in my vieuw allowed , even if it was Bombing a city to break morale.

[Snapper]

Harris was unequivocal. He only cared about his crews - The Old Lags - and this was no empty publicity gesture. He was unashamedly hateful of the Germans. He had fought them twice.

 

Dresden - the old chestnut of the anti-Harris lobby - is a sacred cow of the left and a hotchpotch of revisionists. The raid was organised on the basis it would disrupt German communications as the Soviets advanced. Hindsight tells us it was no major success. The casualties will never truly be known - so it's as easy to claim a low figure or a high one. So best not believe any of them.

 

I totally agree that the targeting of cities was probably a strategic error by 1944 but Churchill and his chief scientist Lord Cherwell were happy with events until it finally looked like they might be discredited so they dropped Harris and his command like a hot brick. Hence the age it took to get him and them honoured with memorials.

 

Harris deserves his memorial and Park should be added to make a trio - not as a replacement. Park was terribly wronged by the establishment, RAF and the Air Ministry - just as Dowding was. His lasting memorial should be treated as a separate requirement.

 

For all his mistakes, Harris was totally committed to beating the Germans. He believed he knew the best way. He could be uncharitable - he said the army would not understand tanks until they'd taught them to sh*t and eat hay - and he loathed the Nazis - They have sewn the wind - they shall reap the Whirlwind (he made various versions of this quote). Brave people like Pastor Bell stood up to his policy with his well known rebuttle to Harris's Ethics of bombing lecture - calling it the Bombing of ethics. Fair enough - he lived in a democracy.

 

I don't believe Harris can be blamed for fuelling Soviet victory. This fault lies firmly with the Americans. Roosevelt and Marshall saw the chance to end British power and happily jumped into bed with Stalin to create the new post-war order. Britain was spent anyway. They let Stalin have Berlin and much, much more and quickly regretted it. After all, Eisenhower called the city "real estate". He didn't believe it for a minute.

 

As for the Dam Busters - the start of this thread. Harris didn't approve. But he liked results. Wallis said his bomb would work, it did. But the price of so many good crews was high - but out of 55,000 - a drop in the ocean.

 

May God bless them all. They live on.

[berna2vm]

Yes indeed,war is a crime in itself and I echo the sentiments,god bless all the heroes. I shed a tear almost every night when I realise that another mother has lost a son, to a sister the loss of a brother,wife grieving over a husband,And a child never to be reunited with its father.

I find it hard to watch the rememberance day coverage because I well up and cannot believe that I went to the Army recruitment office to sign up for the Falklands conflict... I don't feel so brave these days.

In Afghanistan they are predominately boys and it seems horrific that we are losing them in such numbers.Guy Gibson was only 26 when he died and you realise that this is nothing new.

I love the machinery of war but sometimes I shudder when I realise exactly what it can do.

I am rambling now but the realisation is a little painful sometimes.

God bless them all.

Richard.

[Snapper]

Ramble on. Thats what we do.

Good man.

 

MB

[Desert Rat]

In Afghanistan they are predominately boys and it seems horrific that we are losing them in such numbers.Guy Gibson was only 26 when he died and you realise that this is nothing new.

I love the machinery of war but sometimes I shudder when I realise exactly what it can do.

I am rambling now but the realisation is a little painful sometimes.

God bless them all.

Richard.

 

I dont think you are alone in your sentiments.

Its nice that we are able to sit and swap opinions, stories and ideas.

Lets not forget the price that was paid so long ago to allow us to do this.

 

On a personal level i also think its time that the men (and women) of Bomber Command were properly recognised.

 

DR

[Snapper]

Don't hold your breath. I won't get political - it isn't a party political issue.

But it isn't a vote winner. What we should have is a memorial comparable to the Battle of Britain freizes on the Thames Embankment. But I'd put it in Lincoln. Then I'd do one for Coastal Command - maybe in Falmouth or somewhere relevant to them in the West Country. Where do I stop?

 

MB

[Degsy]

Completely agree with you on all points Snap, Harris and his crews were 'of their time'. It was the only way at the time that this country could hit back and Harris knew that it was impossible for the average crew to hit pinpoint targets hence area bombing. Hindsight is a wonderful thing but it is far too easy to criticise more than 60 years after the event,I think a lot of the critics would have felt very differently had they lived through those times.

[Desert Rat]

Don't hold your breath. I won't get political - it isn't a party political issue.

But it isn't a vote winner. What we should have is a memorial comparable to the Battle of Britain freizes on the Thames Embankment. But I'd put it in Lincoln. Then I'd do one for Coastal Command - maybe in Falmouth or somewhere relevant to them in the West Country. Where do I stop?

 

MB

 

Totally agree.

Strangley i saw a Catalina today stooging around and it makes you think about the lads from Coastal Command. Be it on anti-submarine duties or out in weather that was not fit for flying looking for downed crews, those lads had a bloody thankless task.

Also, you hear about the Battle of Britain lads but what about the night fighter crews ?

 

As you say though, it ain't no vote winner.....

 

DR

[Adam Elsdon]

Anywhere you go in the country are the remains of wartime activity, North East Scotland where i live had the coastal strike wings.

 

If you look deep enough, they are remembered, a plaque here, a small stone monument on the edge of an empty field.

 

I would say if you are going to do anything, find out about what it was all about, and pass it on, the monument on the fields edge suddenly takes on a new meaning, it turns into a living airfield with dozens of Beaufighters, mosquitoes and mustangs, strike wings crewed by pilots from all around the commonwealth, and europe, thousands of personnell in mini towns which sprung up in a matter of weeks all dedicated to destroying the nazi war machine, and then disappeared just as fast at the end of the war

 

Its not the enormity of the monument, its remembering what they done and why they did it and how they carried it out in at times arduous conditions at a time that was perceived as one of our darkest.

 

The historians can only speculate.

 

 

 

 

For those interested in the Banff strike wing look here, good photos and timeline of sorties, and the Germans definitely weren't a spent force, have a look at the sortie 4 days before VE day its a belter.

 

http://www.scotshistoryonline.co.uk/rafbanff.html

Edited August 24, 2009 by Adam Elsdon

[radiomike7]

Completely agree with you on all points Snap, Harris and his crews were 'of their time'. It was the only way at the time that this country could hit back and Harris knew that it was impossible for the average crew to hit pinpoint targets hence area bombing. Hindsight is a wonderful thing but it is far too easy to criticise more than 60 years after the event,I think a lot of the critics would have felt very differently had they lived through those times.

 

 

Well said Degsy, people forget how many thousands of troops and guns were not available for front line duty as they were otherwise employed defending Germany from air strikes. Further manpower had to be diverted to repair the constant damage to factories, railways, power supplies and communication systems.

 

Re. the bouncing bombs it would seem that they may not have been that effective as to the best of my knowledge they were never used again. When my Father in law was tasked with destroying the Kembs barrage he suggested using Upkeep bombs but all the original Lancs had been converted back to conventional bombers and he completed the job using Tallboys.

Edited August 25, 2009 by radiomike7

[Degsy]

Thanks for that link Adam, very interesting.

[No Signals]

The bombing of Dresden in the final days of the war in 1945 is one thing that I almost consider as a war crime.

 

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. As to whether Dresden should have been attacked? It was a strategic rail junction which was still pushing supplies forward. A close friend of mine, German by birth and a young girl at the time, was with her mother on the roof of an ammunition train that had just passed through Dresden at the time the beginning of the raid. She assures me it was incredibly frightening and sheer chance that none of the wagons were hit. She also is quite clear that only military traffic went forward through this rail complex, hence the reason for the trip on top of the wagon rather than inside a coach. (They were, by the way, fleeing the Nazis as they were amongst the German population who didn't support them). She is equally quite clear that it was a 'fair target' and the amount of munitions in the city that night contributed to the conflagration. She is also quite clearly of the opinion that many people since that time have very effectively manipulated the facts to make it appear that it was a 'soft' target. I merely pass on her opinions, as being someone who was there.

[Shakey985]

For my two bobs worth

History is as it happens in its time and in its place and to consider history when it occured you have to go back in time. Look at it from his eyes with the information he had, I would say that most of us would if we could go back in time change things but we ca'nt, so it should be left as it is and he did a bloody good job.

All these new books do is sell, the first thing I look at in a new history book is the bibliography and sources, if dont have one dont by it.