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montie

Saracen Build-up

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Hi all,

 

The Saracen I came accross, I can purchase at a good price. It does need a lot of work, though. I understood that the Defence Force purchased 270 MK3's in the 50's, stored them, upgraded them, used them as a basis for new designs and then sold them. A lot was used in the security industry as bullion carriers after even more mods. A few of them are still around but I have never seen one been driven around.

Edited by montie

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Ah South African Sarecens? Now would those be the ones that in the early 1970's had engines rebulit by avation jersey , using parts from the Army supply depot at Aldershot? :cool2:

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Hi, thanks for your posts. I have done some research on the subject but mostly find descriptions. I did locate a place for buying manuals and have done so, now awaiting delivery.

 

It has a lot of greasy water in the belly. The lefthand front wheel seems to have a problem as I can turn it if that wheel is lifted. I really hope that it is not the bevel gearbox but rather a side shaft or U-joint. Any comments?.

 

About the engine mods, I really dont know. It definitely is a Mark 3 with a dry sump. The belts are Gilmer belts and the vehicle is fitted with an alternator. the brake system also has been modified. It has an air compressor supplying two large air tanks housed behind the seat backrests. This air is also supplied to the brake master cylinders (no hydraulics on these master cylinders) and then to two brake boosters with a hydraulic tank. There are also hydaulic as well as air pipes going to the brakes on each wheel.

 

The vehicle must have seen a lot of water on the inside at some point as both the hand brake and the transfer box gear lever was siezed. This has now been removed and serviced. The panel on the foot gear select also was found to be removed. I thought there were problems with the gear change(initialy thought it was the Brake until I traced the linkages to the gearbox!) but on closer inspection found marks on the starter such as those when hitting the starter with a rod or spanner when having solonoid trouble. After removing the starter and opening it, again found that a lot of water was present causing items to stick together (sieze is probably closer). So, after a lot of cleaning and figuring out how the starter works, I tested it last night and it now seems fine. The initial problem seems to have been too close tolerances locking up the armature when bolting the starter together. A 0.5mm stainless steel spacer solved that problem though.

 

I now need to refit the fuel tank and service all gearboxes as well as the engine before I can try to start the "Sarie".

 

This brings me to the next obstacle, I have no idea how to drive this vehicle! The two instrument panels have been figured out?? and I imagine I will be able to start the engine. Please help!! :help:

 

I got a pleasant surprise when starting on the vehicle though. All identification plates on the gearboxes, transferbox, engine ans engine accesories shows that the vehicle has been rebuilt in 1987. The tripmeter shows a little over 2 000 km and the hour meter of the engine shows 9 hours. Too bad about all the water though.

 

I have some photo's but stem from the "BC" age. "Before Computor" that is! I will have to ask the kids to assist.

 

Till next time.

Edited by montie

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Hi Montie , sounds like a fair old project you have there ! Good luck and I'm looking forward to seeing some photos ! :-D

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GT 40...... Nice :laugh:

is it right hand drive with the gear shifter in the righthand side?

´

Cheers

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Hi all,

 

Here are some pics.

 

 

Niels v,

Yes, it is a R/H drive with the gear-lever on the sill. At the moment all attention is diverted to the "Sarie" , though.

Slide1..JPG

Slide3..JPG

Slide4..JPG

Slide2..JPG

Edited by montie

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Interesting steering wheel mount must make for difficult cornering

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Hi Montie!....

As a self-confessed Saracen nut, and Mk 5 owner, I'll do my best to help you with your Saracen... It looks to me like it's 'nose' had been lengthened, as I'm led to believe that several were modified in this way in order to fit a diesel engine into the engine compartment... look up 'Saracen 88' on the internet.

As for driving, I'll search through my various manuals and email some copies of the driving instructions to you, I'll send a PM, with my contact details.....

07 May 03 Before Restoration #2.jpg

hurry up! we've got a wedding to get to!.jpg

83 BA 78 in Arena Overlord 2009.jpg

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Now that is a very nice Saracen. One day I may move up and add one to my Rover8 24v FFR stable :red:

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Top pic -looking a little crusty and rusty round the edges, taken before i restored it...:undecided:

 

Last pic -this was taken whilst I was on the way to a wedding reception, Saracen was chosen by the bride, groom had no idea til he came out of the church!:wow:

 

Middle pic -this is most recent pic I have, it was taken at 'Overlord 2009', in Horndean, near Portsmouth, come along to our show this year, and see it 'in the flesh'....:cool2::-D:-D:-D:-D

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Hi guys,

 

Thanks for the mails. Oily, thanks for the PM, I have been off the air for a while and will answer you shortly.

Apparently, the Saracen's nose was extended 150mm to accommodate tooth belts and a front tow hook.

 

A lot more work has gone into the "Sarie" and a few nasty surprises came up. On draining the wheel hubs, bevel, transfer and main gearboxes, only three bevel boxes had some traces of "oil", the rest just a little bit of muck that had been a mixture of oil and water. The transfer box had no oil at all and only a little bit in the gearbox. On servicing the fluid drive, (a hell of a battle to get the plug out without the special tool), it needed about 3 pints of oil.

 

The oil in the R/H middle wheel hub has a lot of steel flakes in it and on closer inspection, my guess is that it is probably a bearing that got damaged because of the low oil levels. Now I have 2 wheels on the R/H side needing attention.

 

The R/H front wheel hub cover was removed with me anticipating to find a stuffed planetary system. It appears fine and the culprit seems to be the bevel box indeed. Bad news! Oily could probably tell me whether it can be removed without disturbing the engine. Fingers crossed though!

 

I got some manuals and they have been a big help. I also located a guy/company in the USA, he returned my money though saying that he doesn't ship outside of the USA. BIG dissapointment, I don't mind paying additional postage if that was the problem. Yet another challenge.

 

I am including pictures of originals.

 

Untill later.

tempe3..jpg

tempe 2..jpg

tempe 1..jpg

Edited by montie

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Hi all,

 

Bad news since I last wrote. After having drained all boxes and hubs, (mostly muck and a little oil), I proceeded with filling the bevel boxes excluding the R/H centre which I want to strip (Evidence of metal (flakes from a bearing?).

 

When getting to filling the R/H centre bevel box (again!) , I noticed oil in the filler tube of this box that was supposed to be drained. Leaving everything for daylight hours (weekend) for closer inspection, I found to my dismay, that the floor covered with oil! Now what! Some seal must be shot between the transfer and bevel box and some seal on the bevel box to atmosphere must have given up the ghost as well! No wonder there was such a greasy mess in the belly when I first opened it up.

 

I imagine I will have to strip the motor and gearbox from the hull for a look-see. It appears that the vehicle must have had a hard time in the past from idiots driving??? it.

 

Wish me luck!

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I wish you lots of good luck mate ! I'm sure she'll be worth the agro of fixing her in the end ! :D

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Im pretty certain there are a few individuals on this site that could point you in the right direction for required parts, that arent put off by posting them.

 

Does it have the Rolls Royce B60 petrol engine in it, or has it been changed by the S.A. Army?

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What a sensible modification in making the snout hinged, that must make life a bit easier.

 

Is that "restored" one a runner or just a tidy lump.

 

R

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Hi guys,

 

I also located a guy/company in the USA, he returned my money though saying that he doesn't ship outside of the USA. BIG dissapointment, I don't mind paying additional postage if that was the problem. Yet another challenge.

 

 

 

Those type of sellers irritate the hell out of me, especially on Ebay as on the listing they can block international bidders but most don't. At the end when you ask for postage cost they suddenly say "oh we don't post stuff there".

 

Anyway look foward to more piccies of your rebuild

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Hi all,

 

I'm back, I have just started the Saracen, I had such an adrenalin rush! The oil pressure reading is beautiful, the air compresser supplying the brakes picked up the air pressure into the green zone on the pressure gauge, the brakes seem to function BG and the alternator reading indicates 28V when picking up the revs! Everything in the engine compartment seems fine!

 

For the driving bit, I still have the problem with the leaking R/H centre bevel box which I need to sort. I have to call on all you guys with experience in this field, Oily for one comes to mind. Can I remove this bevel box without removing the engine and gearbox? Would I be able to remove the bevel stub shaft housings, powering the front and rear wheel drive shafts in situ? I suspect it is the oil seal on the stub to the front wheel that is the major culprit although the intermediate seal between transfer case and bevel box is shot as well.

 

I welcome any info or manuals in this regard since the ones I have falls short regardin this info.

Edited by montie

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Hi all,

 

Seems like everybody is busy as there were no takers regarding info. Guys, the Saracen is just a ordinary Mark3 but with a longer nose, no other funny stuff. I have not heard from Val yet, he also has a Saracen on which he worked and should also know a lot.

 

Could anyone maybe suggest suppliers where I could purchase the required oil seals for the bevel and transfer box, it would also help if it is a web address since phoning overseas would be problematic.

Edited by montie

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Hi all,

 

Seems like everybody is busy as there were no takers regarding info. Guys, my Saracen is just a ordinary Mark3 but with a longer nose, no other funny stuff. I have not heard from Val yet, he also has a Saracen on which he worked and should also know a lot.

 

Could anyone maybe suggest suppliers where I could purchase the required oil seals for the bevel and transfer box, it would also help if it is a web address since phoning overseas would be problematic.

 

Hi Montie,

 

I think what might be stopping people from replying is that the Saracen is modified from original, I see the braking system is radically changed, and steering must also be, then the electrics. Having done quite a bit of work on Saracens in last 30+ years, I might be able to give some advice. For oil seals and other parts, you should contact Richard Banister in the UK, they will have them and send out to you, email address is wjrbanister@btconnect.com

 

You should have the complete EMER for the vehicle, this is in several sections, Technical Description, Unit Repairs, Field Repairs and Base Repairs. Without these it will be difficult for me to convey instructions to you and for you to see exactly what to do. ;)

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Hi Montie,

 

I think what might be stopping people from replying is that the Saracen is modified from original, I see the braking system is radically changed, and steering must also be, then the electrics. Having done quite a bit of work on Saracens in last 30+ years, I might be able to give some advice. For oil seals and other parts, you should contact Richard Banister in the UK, they will have them and send out to you, email address is wjrbanister@btconnect.com

 

 

Hi Richard,

 

You are right, a lot of accesory systems were modified. My problem though, is with the basics which remained untouched. I don't have any hassles with the modified parts. I have contacted Richard as you suggested and he indeed has the seals and packings that I need. Thank you very much for this helpful info.

 

The EMER set is still an obstacle, I have some parts and is still scrounging for the others. Does anyone perhaps have an exploded drawing of a bevel box? I think that could go a long way in clarifying some of my queries.

 

I am planning to tackle the centre bevel box over the weekend, armed with EMER V613 with some bevel box info. I just hope the current good weather holds up!

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Hi all,

 

Here are some pics of the work over the weekend. My brother-in-law came to visit and together we tackled the bevelbox. We decided against stripping out the steering assembly, opting to cut the panel above the gearbox to allow access. Two small strategic cuts were made in the panel and on refitting it, it will be Tig welded up and treated for corrosion.

 

This gave us enough room to work. The rear colllar came off easily but the front one took a lot of persuasion to remove. This front bevel box has a very large amount of play on the stiub axle and the stub can be easily turned by hand, confirming earlier suspisions that it is totally U/S!

 

The Centre box front oil seal was removed and inspected, indeed showing that a lot of wear and no lip evident any more. It has now been replaced thanks to the seal size given by Robert.

 

Turning our attention to the R/H Centre wheel reduction hub, inspections revealed that the bearing cage has been rubbing againt the hub cap. A very good flush and a new bearing should sort the problem on this wheel. Research on the Internet for bearing cross reference part numbers showed that a lot of manufacturers carry this bearing (RMS 10). Upon phoning

the first Bearing company, I was told that they have one bearing in stock! At a price of R 154.00 (more or less 11 pounds), I thought it was a give away. Now for removing that bearing without major disassembly!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This photo reveals the mod done to replace the in-tank Tokheim submersible fuel pumps which were both U/S. These must have been installed by the South African Army together with the stainless steel fuel tank. Quite a good mod I think! Pity that I could not obtain two new Tokheim pumps. The two sets of Facet pumps were connected in series, fuel wise and electrically, to get to the required 24V. It works like a charm with each set operating depending on wether the Reserve or main tank has been selected. I constructed two stainless pick-ups with screens for the intank inlets, replacing the pumps. I might have to install a pressure regulator though on after-thought.

 

 

 

 

This photo shows the specs of this Saracen. It was English built (280 of them!) and exported to South Africa. I am sure that there should be similar models around Europe, it can't only be South Africa that has these.

 

 

 

Till next time, gents.

Slide3.JPG

Slide4.JPG

Slide2.JPG

Slide5.JPG

Slide1.JPG

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Hi Montie!.... Good News!:cool2:,

 

I've found my manuals for the Saracen, hopefully attached to this post/thread are some exploded-diagrams of the 3 Bevel Boxes..... along with their relevant parts lists. For good measure, I'll also email them to you, as they may be clearer that way:D

 

Regards,

 

Matt

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Hmmm:embarrassed:, it seems the 'attachments' part of the forum is still playing silly buggers, and won't let me attach things like pictures etc, so check your private emails, my friend, and you shall see what is inside a bevel box!!!:cool2:

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Hi Matt,

 

You are a star! I got the E-mail as well, the pictures are excellent, I'm busy downloading it and will make copies to add to my meager (but growing, thanks to you!) collection of info.

 

Now down to some serious studying of these pics!

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Hi guys,

 

Just an update. The R/h front bevel box was stripped in situ. The results was not as bad as

I expected! These machines are durable! Next question, how on earth did the pinion rotate so freely( really!) if only one tooth is broken? The front wheel was not lifted or turned.

 

 

 

 

 

 

rh bevel box access.JPG

bevel box muck 2.JPG

Rh front bevel box.JPG

damaged pinion.JPG

bevel stub removed.JPG

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