CVR(T) Scorpions - Operation Granby

Does anyone have any photos of Scorpions in the Gulf War in 91?

Which units took them out there?

I have read that 51 Sqn RAF Regiment had some out there?

Thanks,

Chris

I've lots of (Nicks') Gulf war and CVRT books at home, will have a look when I get a mo. Not thinking of getting one are you....?

slight thread hijack any any one got pics of ferrets in gw1

I've lots of (Nicks') Gulf war and CVRT books at home, will have a look when I get a mo. Not thinking of getting one are you....?

I think we might already have one!

I am fairly sure 16/5L were 1 Armd Div Armd Recce Regt and that one of their Scorpions claimed a T55 destroyed, which may have been Scorpion's first, maybe even only combat kill.

Sorry Alien, but I've checked the 16/5 L history and they used Scimitars on Op Granby. You're right about the T55 though - using Swingfire missiles and 30mm Rarden they destroyed 2 T62s and 7 T55s!

I've posed the question on here before but imagine finding that your ex Withams Sabre was formerly one of the Scorpions used by the Blue and Royals in the Falklands - they're out there somewhere!

I'd love to know if Scorpions were used in the Gulf War - I always thought the RAF Regt used them but I've never seen any pictures.

Peter,

Ferret Mk 2/3, 03 CC 42

Sorry Alien, but I've checked the 16/5 L history and they used Scimitars on Op Granby. You're right about the T55 though - using Swingfire missiles and 30mm Rarden they destroyed 2 T62s and 7 T55s!

 

I've posed the question on here before but imagine finding that your ex Withams Sabre was formerly one of the Scorpions used by the Blue and Royals in the Falklands - they're out there somewhere!

 

I'd love to know if Scorpions were used in the Gulf War - I always thought the RAF Regt used them but I've never seen any pictures.

 

Peter,

 

Ferret Mk 2/3, 03 CC 42

Were the swingfires from Strikers ? Always wondered how effective the Scorpion 76mm actually would have been if used in anger...

Peter

The best - almost the only - real description of CVR(T)s in the Falklands that I've come across is in the Blues and Royals history by J N P Watson. Unfortunately the vehicles are only described by their call signs 23 A, B & C and 24 A, B & C, and although there are some photos I've not seen elsewhere you can't make out the VRNs. And I say that as someone whose Scorp hull is apparently 02 FD 78, which was in service with the Blues and Royals in 1987!

(My turret definitely has sand paint under the green, so there's a reasonable chance it was in Granby, unless anyone else can suggest desert use for a Scorp).

Cheers,

Mike

Were the swingfires from Strikers ? Always wondered how effective the Scorpion 76mm actually would have been if used in anger...

I don't see why a hit from a 76mm HESH round shouldn't kill a T55 or T62. I wouldn't like to say whether it could take out a T64 or a T72 and once more modern armour appeared, I doubt it.

To my mind the biggest problem is getting a hit. At 533M/S, a HESH round would take three seconds to fly a mile, so hitting a moving target (that wasn't on rails and travelling in a straight line, unlike movers on the ranges) would be a lot harder than using a 30mm (wiki says some twice the muzzle velocity) or a 120mm (memory suggests a muzzle velocity on an L11 fitted to Chieftain and CR1 of 3200M/S: by the time the commander's brain has serviced the gunner's cry of "FIRING NOW!", braced for the recoil as he presses the trigger on the W of NOW to avoid his nose meeting the commander's sight coming the other way, blinked and refocused through the dust and smoke of the round leaving the barrel causing sight rash, the round has gone clean through the target literally faster than the blink of an eye and the fuel and ammo have barbecued the crew, now chasing the turret downrange).

Of more interest is that crews on the ground in Helmand would love a vehicle that could keep up better than a CR2 - if we had any in theatre - and lob a medium-sized (say about 75mm) high explosive round into a compound where it would do far more damage than a 30mm, and far more immediately than waiting for a fire mission from the artillery some mile behind the lines or an airstrike if they can get the authorisation.

Scorpion gunnery was almost an art rather than a science, real gunnery and none of this computerised point-and-click nonsense.

Edit Scorpion didn't carry a designation CVR(T) FS for fire support for nothing.

I believe a Spartan MCT scored a "double" during Granby- thats a kill with consecutive Milan missiles. Only trouble is it would then have to retreat quickly to reload as this involves exiting the vehicle!

On my recruit firing at Warcop on Saladin in 1975 I managed to hit a poor Conqueror bang on the nose with my 1 Hesh round, sending the I.G. 'wild'! Firing semi-indirect certainly left me in awe.

If memory serves me correctly, the Rarden on the Fox had an mv of 1220m/s on some ammo.

Yet another fascinating thread on this forum.

Does anyone have any photos of Scorpions in the Gulf War in 91?

 

Which units took them out there?

 

I have read that 51 Sqn RAF Regiment had some out there?

 

Thanks,

 

Chris

We did but it was 1 Sqn with Scorpions and a few Spartans, 51 cvrt was left behind......NO transport for thier cvrt.....the sad state of the military as it is now

A few 16/5 guys transferd to 9/12L after options for change(not wanting to be tanks) they told an inpressioable young trooper(me) that they only had scimitars in iraq as germany based as they were at the time only had them but the legend i was told was they contacted t62s with 30mm and it was bouncing off luckily 2 scorpians from the qdg used 76mm hesh and drove off leaving the 16/5 emmbarassed as a 76mm gunner 3rd to last intake to fire no traing rounds for us it was live hesh all the way:-D i can atest to its power the old chieftan had a few holes in it from us (we went to have a look at night on range guard when our inst was asleep in the tower at warcop)as i say the gulf tale may be an exageration as we young NIGS got told all that sort of stuff usualy at a smoker:cool2:

There are seven photos (one colour and six black and white) of Scorpions in Iraq in Bob Morrison's book "Operation Granby". The text accompanying one of the photos notes that each of the Challenger regimements had a troop of 8 Scorpions attached to provide close reconnaisence. The only (partially) visable VRN is 04FD3* . There is also a photo of an RAF Regiment Scorpion (VRN 49AT09) in Bob Morrison's companion book, "Operation Desert Sabre".

There are a few shots of Ferrets (MKs 1/1, 1/2 and 2/3) in the first of the books.

On my recruit firing at Warcop on Saladin in 1975 I managed to hit a poor Conqueror bang on the nose with my 1 Hesh round, sending the I.G. 'wild'! Firing semi-indirect certainly left me in awe.

If memory serves me correctly, the Rarden on the Fox had an mv of 1220m/s on some ammo.

 

Yet another fascinating thread on this forum.

Small world. I did my Scorpion Live Firing (out of Catterick) at Warcop in February 1976.

I did my Scorpion B3 gunners course at Catterick 1975. Whilst I was there I helped to train some TA Soldiers on the .30 Browning, as we had them on our Ferrets in NI.

Ah, .30 Browning. Shot out barrels, 'Cone of fire' started at the muzzle!

Get the 'Headspace and timing' wrong, and did you get the **** ripped out of you when you fired it on the range!

Old 10p and 2p coins as 'Go and No-go' gauge. :angel:

Those were the days!:cheesy:

'Chas.'

Since having purchased my 03FD66 Sabre last October I have jumped into the vehicle history.

03FD66 (when it was a Scorpion) was with the 14th/20th King's Hussars as part of the 4th Armoured Brigade in 91. I found the it was one of eight Scorpions in the Recce troop. The recce troop has kept in touch with each other over the years and as I have noted in another thread their website has a number of pics of the Scorpions used. I have been in touch with a few of them.

Their records showed that 03FD66 was CS 21 and actually was the troop leaders vehicle. It was called "Rogue Rupert". Two of the guys in the pic told me that those in the back were actually standing on CS 21.

As you know once the ground war finally got started it didn't last all that long. I am hoping to get much more information as to the role the recce troop played.

If I could wave a magic wand I would turn 03FD66 back into a Scorpion and completely do it up Gulf War with the look and equipment.

Here is CS 21 overseeing pows.

Wow!! Brilliant research - well done!!

Here is the first detailed list of deployed CVRTs that I have seen for the Gulf War in the First British Armourd Division.

Fab research indeed..!

Don't suppose you have any other VRN's confirmed as being there do you..? Mine is 04FD34 so tantalisingly close to the one mentioned above....

Leave the Sabre alone mate, I have a theory that in time there will be fewer Sabres around than there are Scorps..!

Cheers

Tim

No I don't have any other vehicle numbers but I will see if I can get the entire list. I believe they had a few spare vehicles that they used frquently.

Do you have the service history? Was it assigned to a unit involved in the Gulf War?

I'm currently restoring a Scorpion (ex Belgian hull with a UK turret) that will end up in Op Granby trim. There are a few books out there which have good pics of Granby Scorpions in them. The differences in (external) personal stowage between them is pretty staggering! I understand that they struggles to keep up with the Challengers in the sand.

I'm currently restoring a Scorpion (ex Belgian hull with a UK turret) that will end up in Op Granby trim. There are a few books out there which have good pics of Granby Scorpions in them. The differences in (external) personal stowage between them is pretty staggering! I understand that they struggles to keep up with the Challengers in the sand.

Vince

Me and Nige have agreed to do our Scimitars in Granby trim. Watch out for then in about 2018..!

Cheers

Tim

I'll race you then!