Camouflage? Infra red?

[sabre]

Hello,

 

I would like to know what the real or exact function is of the black canvasses (woven) you sometimes see on British vehicles. They are mostly rolled up and hang alongside the vehicles (as on this picture).

 

Piet

[Markheliops]

Hi Piet.

 

As I recall this was used to hide the shape of the vehicle - ie wheels, etc. Mostly coloured a dull grey and meant to be used for urban areas as opposed to woodland camouflage - green and black.

 

Can't remember if it helped reduce heat being ommited from the vehicle to lessen detection from IR cameras - but it couldn't have hurt.

 

Also reduced glare from the shiny bits.

 

Sure someone will come up with a more technical explaination.

 

Markheliops

[Bazz]

As explained already they were mostly used to shAde shine and change the shape of the vehicle. They were also used to line cam nets esp on AFV's to prevent the net from snagging as they always did, whilst being put up.

The woven rolls are just nylon, I have seen them painted in a multitude of different patterns. They are no use as Thermal sheilds but painted with IRR paint had some but limited use.

[sabre]

Thanks Guys!

 

So I suppose as they are on the picture, they serve only to cover the lowest part of the vehicle.

 

Piet

[Espressodude]

A shade whilst having a roadside tea and crumpets(strumpets)???:rofl:

[Bazz]

Piet,

 

Thats what they look like, we had them on our CVRT and they were used to cover the road wheels and tracks.

 

Barry.

[Big Al]

Hi Piet.

 

As I recall this was used to hide the shape of the vehicle - ie wheels, etc. Mostly coloured a dull grey and meant to be used for urban areas as opposed to woodland camouflage - green and black.

 

Can't remember if it helped reduce heat being ommited from the vehicle to lessen detection from IR cameras - but it couldn't have hurt.

 

Also reduced glare from the shiny bits.

 

Sure someone will come up with a more technical explaination.

 

Markheliops

 

Yes it is used to hide the shape when I was in 25+ years ago we used hesian sacks on our vehicles painted black or green it was also used to cover windows.lights ect normaly rolled up, not sure about IR but we used the same paint as the vehicles we painted alot in the 70/80s in Germany!

[David Ives]

i know when i was in hessian was used to cover wheel arches windows and lights so as to disrupt shine and shape then camo nets on top

[Adam Elsdon]

As mentioned above it is used to break up the shape of the vehicle, and cover the reflective parts of the vehicle, this is used in conjunction with camouflage net and cam poles for best effect although it can be used for short periods when vehicles have to make a stop, and pull off the road to reduce their visibility.

 

We used to use one big piece of hessian, ordered in big black rolls, and stitched together with cam string, then hang it up over a fence around the back of the hangar for a while until it started to look faded, it goes a brown colour, what you would have is a mottled black brown effect, this would be kept on top of the vehicle, when you parked up, the bonnet was lifted on the landrover, to help break up the shape and the hessian pulled over the entire vehicle and the trailer that was brought alongside, the camouflage net would then be pulled over pulled reasonably tight and pegged down, then the cam poles would be put on and around the vehicle holding the net away from the vehicle like a big cam net bubble, rendering the whole affair near invisible particularly in woodland.

 

During an exercise on Stanta training area we had a 3 man comms team with Wolf, trailer and 9x9 camouflaged as above, all movement is restricted to within the camouflage netting once set up to minimise foliage flattening in the surrounding area, and making it harder to see.

Anyway a large amount of trucks and troops turned up, i seem to recall it was the Royal Logistic Corp and proceeded to set up operations 25 metres from our site, which was a surprise as we were supposed to be the only unit operating in that area, anyway after 6 hours, when a female captain went for a jimmy riddle in the woods nearby we decided that this would be an opportune moment to notify them that they had set up in our back yard! we scared the hell out of her! and she couldnt believe that we had been there the whole time, she thought that we were a patrol passing through! we showed her our setup complete with miniature aerial farm out back to prove otherwise :cool2:

 

I used to teach/demonstrate vehicle cam techniques, and if done correctly it can be very effective.

[Guest catweazle (Banned Member)]

have you ever hid an arsefart:-D if so do you have pictures?:whistle:

[Adam Elsdon]

Ah, now you see there was no need to camouflage an ASSFART, as the cloaking device was a cunningly effective piece of kit :-D

[Guest catweazle (Banned Member)]

I know of its new location:cool2:but not wanting to risk another forum crash it will have to remain secret.:nono:

[Adam Elsdon]

I'd heard that somebody wanted to swap a Tiger tank for it!

[Tony B]

Or maybe CW is trying to get hold it for clandistine meetings with his new Paris Armor? :cool2:

[Guest catweazle (Banned Member)]

Or maybe CW is trying to get hold it for clandistine meetings with his new Paris Armor? :cool2:

Not into Armour mate ,only soft skins :cool2:

[Tony B]

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

[turnkeyiand]

Apart from the other things mentioned with regards cam, the hessian covering the lower parts of the vehicle (running gear) gets rid of the shadow that would otherwise form under the vehicle, therefore giving its position away. It should be noted that, in line with this, vehicles (tracked or wheeled) don't have black paint applied to road wheels as again this shows up as an unnaturally dark shadow. All vehicle paint should be infra red repellant (IRR) or more correctly absorbant but this pretty well became accademic with the introduction of thermal imaging.

 

Ian D

[fv1609]

or more correctly absorbant

 

:confused:

[fv1609]

It should be noted that, in line with this, vehicles (tracked or wheeled) don't have black paint applied to road wheels as again this shows up as an unnaturally dark shadow.

 

[ted angus]

Apart from the other things mentioned with regards cam, the hessian covering the lower parts of the vehicle (running gear) gets rid of the shadow that would otherwise form under the vehicle, therefore giving its position away. It should be noted that, in line with this, vehicles (tracked or wheeled) don't have black paint applied to road wheels as again this shows up as an unnaturally dark shadow. All vehicle paint should be infra red repellant (IRR) or more correctly absorbant but this pretty well became accademic with the introduction of thermal imaging.

 

Ian D

 

 

Ian IRR is Infra Red Reflecting, IRR didn't become acedemic with the intro of Thermal imaging Recce IRR paints and other IRR materials were developed as a measure to counter the introduction of thermal imagery equipments. see the link for tech detail http://www.dstan.mod.uk/data/00/023/00000400.pdf

 

This includes BS 381c tint 380 introduced just before Gulf war 2 .

TED

[turnkeyiand]

Apparently I stand corrected.

 

I was always under the impression that IRR paint absorbed the IR to prevent it being reflected back to the sight.

 

In the units in which I served, never did we paint wheels or bogies black nor did I ever come across vehicles painted as such for the reasons I mentioned. If there was a mod document relevant at the time it was never adhered to, to my knowledge.

 

On the last point I was thinking more in terms of heat sensing rather than IR sighting in which case, as far as my limited knowledge goes, IRR paint would be quite useless as the tyres/tracks/engine etc would stand out sufficiently to make the super structure irrelevant

 

The link to the dstan document was quite interesting but my experiences were from twenty years previously and I would guess that the various specs quoted go out of the window as soon as the paint was thinned for spraying by the average squaddie at unit level.

 

My comments were made from my observations/experiences as a front end user to add to information supplied to the original question,

 

Ian D

[fv1609]

I was always under the impression that IRR paint absorbed the IR to prevent it being reflected back to the sight.

 

Foliage reflects IR & the purpose of IRR paints is to give a similar degree & pattern of IR reflectance as would be found in NW European woodland. If the paint was absorbent then there would be a vehicle shaped IR "shadow" that would draw attention against the IR refelective foliage.

 

The quote was from Army Code No.60503(PAM 3), Materiel Regulations for the Army, Volume 2, Vehicles & Technical Equipment, Pamphlet No.3, Painting of Army Vehicles, Aircraft & Equipment, Annex B, Dec 1980

 

Ian what you said may well be the case in the field. What is written in Regulations doesn't always get carried through! I have no service experience & go only go by what is printed. So input from the front line users is always welcome:)

Edited January 12, 2009 by fv1609

[turnkeyiand]

Point taken on the IR shadow, and to be honest, it is not my area of expertise.

As for the painting regs, I think the picture attached to the original post clearly indicates the unit level adherance (or not) to said regs,

 

Ian D

[ted angus]

Apparently I stand corrected.

 

I was always under the impression that IRR paint absorbed the IR to prevent it being reflected back to the sight.

 

In the units in which I served, never did we paint wheels or bogies black nor did I ever come across vehicles painted as such for the reasons I mentioned. If there was a mod document relevant at the time it was never adhered to, to my knowledge.

 

On the last point I was thinking more in terms of heat sensing rather than IR sighting in which case, as far as my limited knowledge goes, IRR paint would be quite useless as the tyres/tracks/engine etc would stand out sufficiently to make the super structure irrelevant

 

The link to the dstan document was quite interesting but my experiences were from twenty years previously and I would guess that the various specs quoted go out of the window as soon as the paint was thinned for spraying by the average squaddie at unit level.

 

My comments were made from my observations/experiences as a front end user to add to information supplied to the original question,

 

Ian D

 

 

Hi Ian , IRR paint was introduced and development on other IRR materials was initiated to try and counter the Warsaw Pact's Infra Red airborne Recce equipment , Thermal imaging, heat seeking its basically the same technology be it the airborne IR recce gear, the night sight on the battle field or the thermal image camera used by firefighters.

Although the Army were slightly ahead of us , in the RAF we suddenly stopped painting airfield equipment and vehicles golden yellow and in came IRR matt green or IRR Matt green/matt black in the case of field or tactical units in 1974. The percieved threat was not the guy on the ground with a night sight, it was the recce aircraft as these could see aircraft / AFVs etc in hardened buildings hours after they had stopped engines due to the residual heat. Indeed out photo recce guys were pretty adept in what could be gleaned from an image and no doubt so were the WP guys.

You mention the properties going out of the window once the paint was thinned for spraying by the guy at unit level indeed the period between repaint was equally critical I seem to recall it was 2 years. We used to stencil the IRR applied date in 1" letters near the rear number plate.

It was an impossible task . I remember one year on our formal annual inspection by HQ Strike Command that one of the inspecting team made a a report that we had failed to meet the IRR maintenance requirements, he was the same guy who had refused to authorise additional spray gear and manpower.

You will no doubt be aware that IRR paint is far more dangerous than any of the old lead based paints we are frequently warned about, both during application by brush or gun and during any subsequent rubbing down it is full of nightmare nasties.

Regards TED

[AlienFTM]

WRT hessian. In sabre troops, we kept hessian to a minimum, to cover the distinctive shape of the roadwheels, the shine of all lights and the shadow under the front. The rest was covered by parking between four trees and draping cam nets to put the vehicle in a garage out of which we could drive if we got bumped without getting tangled. Of course it wasn't always possible to find four trees to park between. Furthermore it is an offence in Germany to put nails in trees because they kill them. (I drive past a tree every day, around which four teenagers wrapped their car a couple of years ago. Besides ripping half the bark off, those who miss them keep attaching flowers, toys, laminated poetry, etc to the tree. If the German authorities saw it they'd go mental.)

 

In Command Troop on the other hand, we didn't move so often or so hurriedly. We didn't just cover roadwheels, lights and shadow: we covered the entire vehicle with hessian to break up the far more bulky shape of the command vehicle, with cam nets over the whole thing, supported on struts so that the cam net broke up the shape still further, rather than just looking like a hessian-covered vehicle covered with cam nets.

 

At the 15/19H Association weekend in July I was pleased to see that Command Troop, The Light Dragoons still take their camouflage drills this seriously.