chevpol Posted October 2, 2008 Share Posted October 2, 2008 Morning all, can I ask a question of all the knowledgablepeople on here? (or the rest of you for that matter!!!!:-D). can you drive a wartime heavy vehicle, ie Matador, Dizzy T, Hippo etc on a car licence? If you tow a trailer with a Landrover on it, do you then need a HGV/LCV licence? awaiting the results from deep down to avoid fall out!!! ttfn Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alant Posted October 2, 2008 Share Posted October 2, 2008 I think you will need the HGV/LCV and quite possibly a Test Certificate as It Is being used to carry a load. An article about this was In CMV a few years ago. Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony B Posted October 2, 2008 Share Posted October 2, 2008 I'll await conformation but I would say that towing a trailer puts it into HGV catergory. Depending on when you took your licence if you have catergory C1+E you can drive a combination of vehicle up to 8.25t. MAM Maximum authorised Mass (the current jargon for gros weight of truck and tow). So what is the MAM (or gross) of the truck? You can try DSA or DVLA website, but you will get the standard 'nothing on this site is garunteed correct'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Johns Posted October 2, 2008 Share Posted October 2, 2008 (edited) can you drive a wartime heavy vehicle, ie Matador, Dizzy T, Hippo etc on a car licence? If you tow a trailer with a Landrover on it, do you then need a HGV/LCV licence? Mark Historic category heavy vehicles can only be driven on a car licence if used UNLADEN and are allowed to tow an UNLADEN trailer, ie. for show and display only Edited October 2, 2008 by Nick Johns Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony B Posted October 2, 2008 Share Posted October 2, 2008 So its the Vehicle Excise Tax band, not the weight then? Does this then start the old chesnut of the Land Rover being 'personal bagae'? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markheliops Posted October 2, 2008 Share Posted October 2, 2008 Nick is right on this one. The important word is unladen I think you will find chaps any trailer over 750 (ie Landrover trailer) becomes a Cat E as soon as you stick a load on it. Sticky subject this- I think I am correct in saying any LGV vehicle pulling a trailer weighting more than 750 and carrying a load requires a Cat E on your licence. If in doubt - don't do it. As usual it will be fine until something happens and you find out the Police want to talk to you and your insurance company turns the other way. Markheliops Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony B Posted October 2, 2008 Share Posted October 2, 2008 Mark, any trailer over 750kg MAM, ie total wieght requires now an +E catergory to the main catergory. If like me you have a licence originally done in quill pen, there is catergory C1 and C1+E this the old 7.5 ton and does allow towing of a trailer over 750kg. LGV rigid vehicle is catergory C on its own, the Artic side is C with a seperate +E test giving you the old class 1. Plus now you have to additional Drivers CPC. to quote from THIS weeks publication: What about New Drivers? Anyone obtaining or applying for a lorry, bus or coach licence after the implementation dates (It was the 10th September 2008 for buses, coaches and will be 10th September 2009 for lorries) will not have aquired (Grandfarther) rights, they will not be able to obtain their first driver CPC by taking periodic training on its own. They will have to pass an initial qualification before being able to drive proffesionally. this can be done at the same time as the vocational driving test. What is the initial qualification The initial qualification is in two parts. A Driver CPC theory test (Which is in two parts and last 4 hours in total with case studies) A Drivers CPC practical test (which is again in 2 parts lasting 2 hours and included demonstration elements similar to the 'show me ,tellme' part of teh existing practical car driving test) The new tests will help drivers get a detailed and practical understanding of driving as a proffesion, and once the initial qualification test has been passed, you will be entitled to a Driver CPC and a vocational driving licence. The CPC last for five years. Well, I wonder how us mere mortals have survied up to now then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormin Posted October 2, 2008 Share Posted October 2, 2008 Mark, any trailer over 750kg MAM, ie total wieght requires now an +E catergory to the main catergory. If like me you have a licence originally done in quill pen, there is catergory C1 and C1+E this the old 7.5 ton and does allow towing of a trailer over 750kg. LGV rigid vehicle is catergory C on its own, the Artic side is C with a seperate +E test giving you the old class 1. Plus now you have to additional Drivers CPC. to quote from THIS weeks publication: What about New Drivers? Anyone obtaining or applying for a lorry, bus or coach licence after the implementation dates (It was the 10th September 2008 for buses, coaches and will be 10th September 2009 for lorries) will not have aquired (Grandfarther) rights, they will not be able to obtain their first driver CPC by taking periodic training on its own. They will have to pass an initial qualification before being able to drive proffesionally. this can be done at the same time as the vocational driving test. What is the initial qualification The initial qualification is in two parts. A Driver CPC theory test (Which is in two parts and last 4 hours in total with case studies) A Drivers CPC practical test (which is again in 2 parts lasting 2 hours and included demonstration elements similar to the 'show me ,tellme' part of teh existing practical car driving test) The new tests will help drivers get a detailed and practical understanding of driving as a proffesion, and once the initial qualification test has been passed, you will be entitled to a Driver CPC and a vocational driving licence. The CPC last for five years. Well, I wonder how us mere mortals have survied up to now then? Don't think the CPC applies or is needed unless you are using the vehicle for business use. If it's purely carrying your own goods, like your own Land Rover, there's no requirement for that part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony B Posted October 2, 2008 Share Posted October 2, 2008 No acording to curent, thinking CPC not needed for non commercial uses, but the traing places will be sticking it on courses and extra cost of course, so if you are thinking about an HGV licence, get it BEFORE 10Sept 2009. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtistsRifles Posted October 2, 2008 Share Posted October 2, 2008 The frustrating part there is the word "vocational"!! There is no arrangement whereby anyone can take a non-vocational HGV (I'm sticking with that term as it's what I'm familiar with) just so as they can drive a restored HGV a few miles each year rather than be on the roads 5 or 6 days a week. Therefore if you cannot meet the strict rules for having a vocational licence you are stuffed!! Fortunately we have the ability to drive our old girls on the "B" license - how long for though is anyones guess...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony B Posted October 2, 2008 Share Posted October 2, 2008 A lot of it is due to Eastern European countries joining the EEC. Their licnces must be recognised. I rest my case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtistsRifles Posted October 2, 2008 Share Posted October 2, 2008 A lot of it is due to Eastern European countries joining the EEC. Their licnces must be recognised. I rest my case. Lost me there Tony!! From what I've seen of Eastern European HGV drivers some of them got their licenses from inside a cornflakes packet.... Don't see what that has to do with the UK's rules and regs on getting a license and types of license available??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chevpol Posted October 2, 2008 Author Share Posted October 2, 2008 My licence is C1+E, so up to 8.25 mam Mark PS, got D and DE aswell, but dont think A Matador etc comes under old bus!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony B Posted October 2, 2008 Share Posted October 2, 2008 Lost me there Tony!! From what I've seen of Eastern European HGV drivers some of them got their licenses from inside a cornflakes packet.... Don't see what that has to do with the UK's rules and regs on getting a license and types of license available??? The licence being EEC must be recognised, however our 'Domestic' rules can set other standards, for instance TFL insisit the Bus drivers hold a BTEC qualification, total *** you can do it in about ten minutes. But it does allow you to say 'Sorry not up to standard' without upsetting the God's in Brussels, the thing is however, the Driver CPC is an EEC requirment, so without breacking the free movment/employment rules the new Eastern European block memebers licences are still recognised, they just can't drive other countries trucks and buses commercially. First Group, I'm no longer working for them so :pfrt: tried to get clever and bring over about two hundred Polish drivers, being paid peanuts, they were based in Wales. I was at an event in London where First were being given a national learning award with the man who is now MD of First. We were discussing the standards required to operate services safley. He told me they had to send all the Poles back, they could not be taught enough english to operte saftey. This is not isolated two companys had their operating licences revoked due to saftey concerns over Eastern European drivers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony B Posted October 2, 2008 Share Posted October 2, 2008 My licence is C1+E, so up to 8.25 mam Mark PS, got D and DE aswell, but dont think A Matador etc comes under old bus!!!!! Stick more than 16 seats in the back mate!:cool2: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chevpol Posted October 2, 2008 Author Share Posted October 2, 2008 (edited) Stick more than 16 seats in the back mate!:cool2: got D1 plus D1E aswell!!! First in Stoke have a load of polish drivers, apparently some are good, but some.....! There was a rumour that a polish driver went the wrong way round a roundabout!! But they hushed that one up!!! Heard also that Arriva tried to use Polish drivers in Welsh speaking Wales, somehow I didnt think that would have lasted long!!! Mark (former First driver, then saw sense!!!!) Edited October 2, 2008 by chevpol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony B Posted October 2, 2008 Share Posted October 2, 2008 I can well belive it. On the good side we have a bunch of ex Gurkha's great guys, the locals tried it on for a couple of weeks with them, and then learn't. :-D never thought I'd miss First, till we got sold to Go ahead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ted angus Posted October 2, 2008 Share Posted October 2, 2008 My licence is C1+E, so up to 8.25 mam Mark PS, got D and DE aswell, but dont think A Matador etc comes under old bus!!!!! here is chapter and verse. your C1 +E is a vehicle of 3500 to 7500 plus a trailer that gives a MAM not exceeding 12000 kg here is chapter and verse Medium sized vehicles with or without trailers Description Category Minimum age Vehicles between 3500kg and 7500kg with a trailer up to 750kg C1 18* Combinations of vehicles where the towing vehicle is in subcategory C1 and its trailer has a MAM of over 750kg provided that the MAM of the combination thus formed does not exceed 12000kg and the MAM of the trailer does not exceed the unladen mass of the towing vehicle. (If you passed your category B test prior to 1.1.1997 you will be restricted to a total weight not more than 8250kg) C1+E 21* *Age 18 if combination weight is under 7500kg Large vehicles with or without trailers Description Category Minimum age Vehicles over 3500kg with a trailer up to 750kg C 21* Vehicles over 3500kg with a trailer over 750kg C+E 21* *Age 17 if member of armed forces *Age 18 if member of the young drivers scheme So from 3500 up to 7500 you need a C1 to tow a trailer with it over 750Kg you need C1 +E To drive above 3500 without a upper limit you need a C to tow a trailer over 750 you need C + E TED Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony B Posted October 2, 2008 Share Posted October 2, 2008 Cheerrs Ted! :tup:: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtistsRifles Posted October 2, 2008 Share Posted October 2, 2008 Now THAT makes life interesting!! I tow a 1900Kg caravan with an F-250 rated at 3,999 Kg. I have to use the F-250 as the caravan is 2.5m wide and the law says anything over 2.35m wide needs to be pulled by a vehicle of more than 3501 Kg. So, according to Teds excellent piece, I would seem to need to have a C1+E - but because I have a form of epilepsy I cannot take a vocational C1+E test even though I have a full license till 65 and there is no provision in UK law for a non-vocational C1+E!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtistsRifles Posted October 2, 2008 Share Posted October 2, 2008 Pass the test after a certain date - 1998?? - and you need to take a seperate test to get the "E" endorsement otherwise you are stuck to 750 Kg. Before this date and the B+E is automatic. Going to be interesting to see what VOSA etc. say - if they ever summon the courage to approach our unit in a motorway service... Thus far they've avoided it, picking on unattended units to measure etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ted angus Posted October 2, 2008 Share Posted October 2, 2008 Gents the towing rules since 1 jan 97 apply to caravans just as they do to any other trailer : basically a Cat B obtained since 1 jan 97 only allows towing up to 750kg with the combination exceptions below. Artist Rifles for your como I agree with your thinking and I also reckon you need a C1 +E because of your van's MAM. TED Towing trailers or caravans with vehicles up to 3.5 tonnes In this article reference is made to the maximum authorised mass (MAM) of vehicles and trailers. This should be taken to mean the permissible maximum weight, also known as the gross vehicle weight. Category B: Vehicles up to 3.5 tonnes MAM and with up to eight passenger seats Category B vehicles may be coupled with a trailer up to 750kgs MAM (allowing a combined weight up to 4.25 tonnes MAM) or a trailer over 750kgs MAM provided the MAM of the trailer does not exceed the unladen weight of the towing vehicle, and the combination does not exceed 3.5 tonnes MAM. For example: · a vehicle with an unladen weight of 1.25 tonnes and a MAM of 2 tonnes coupled with a trailer with a MAM of 1.25 tonnes could be driven by the holder of a category B entitlement. This is because the MAM of the combination does not exceed 3.5 tonnes and also the MAM of the trailer does not exceed the unladen weight of the drawing vehicle Whereas · the same vehicle with an unladen weight of 1.25 tonnes and a MAM of 2 tonnes when coupled with a trailer with a MAM of 1.5 tonnes would fall within category B+E. This is because although the combined weight of the vehicle and trailer is within the 3.5 tonnes MAM limit, the MAM of the trailer is more than the unladen weight of the drawing vehicle · Vehicle manufacturers normally recommend a maximum weight of trailer appropriate to their vehicle. Details can usually be found in the vehicle's handbook or obtained from car dealerships. The size of the trailer recommended for an average family car with an unladen weight of around 1 tonne would be well within the new category B threshold. Towing caravans As for towing caravans, existing general guidance recommends that the laden weight of the caravan does not exceed 85% of the unladen weight of the car. In the majority of cases, caravans and small trailers towed by cars should be within the new category B threshold. An exemption from the driver licensing trailer limit allows a category B licence holder to tow a broken down vehicle from a position where it would otherwise cause danger or obstruction to other road users. By passing a category B test national categories F (tractor), K (pedestrian controlled vehicle) and P (moped) continue to be added automatically. Category B+E: Vehicles up to 3.5 tonnes MAM towing trailers over 750kgs MAM Category B+E allows vehicles up to 3.5 tonnes MAM to be combined with trailers in excess of 750kgs MAM. In order to gain this entitlement new category B licence holders have to pass a further practical test for category B+E. There is no category B+E theory test. For driver licensing purposes there are no vehicle/trailer weight ratio limits for category B+E. In this section... · Car and trailer practical driving test · Driving Standards Agency (DSA) commercial services · Minimum test vehicle requirements for buses and lorries · The driving licence you need to tow a caravan or trailer · The practical driving test for buses and lorries · Towing a trailer with a passenger carrying vehicle · Towing trailers with medium sized vehicles between 3.5 and 7.5 tonnes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ted angus Posted October 2, 2008 Share Posted October 2, 2008 Gents its all here as clear as mud !! TED http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/DriverLicensing/WhatCanYouDriveAndYourObligations/index.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony B Posted October 3, 2008 Share Posted October 3, 2008 At which point the usual 'We don't garuntee accuracy' bleat comes in, and all sensible people go abroad and buy a licence. (Getting VERY Grumpy in the old age) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brooky Posted October 3, 2008 Share Posted October 3, 2008 Chaps Driver CPC is only required if you are going to use your vocational licence to earn a living i.e drive LGV's for payment. There are exemptions for those people that will only use their licence for personal reasons (horse boxes is the obvious one) and for people who driving is not their main occupation (scaffolders builders etc). The fact that you have a driver CPC will be recoded both with the DSA and on yet another plastic card with a chip on it. The regulations state that the driver must receive 35hours of training in 5 years (7 hours a year). All those with an existing vocational licence will get under "grandfather" rights a CPC that lasts for 5 years. If that individual does not attend the required training in the next 5 years (September 2014) then he/she will lose their driver CPC and will forgo the right to use their licence to earn a living. I am sure that given the above driving schools will split the training into driving and CPC and run course in both not run them concurrently. Just another point about driver CPC it in no way reflects the CPC that you would need to run a haulage concern, the driver CPC syllabus covers such things as loading/unloading, safe and fuel efficient driving,transport workplace safety etc. It is also an attendance only course with no test or assessment at the end of it. Hope this clears up driver CPC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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