question For Joris and Enigma

[Mark]

This is to you both and is a serious question for me.

 

What is it like to live in a country that has seen so much suffering and hardship throughout the second world war, and yet has so much history in the battlefields, small villages where battles were fought, all the monuments, graveyards etc where so many heroe's are, and so many people like us here on the forum are interested in what happened in those times.

Does this "past" impact on your everday lives or has the country moved on in these times, people obviously remember the past, but do they/you get affected by it.

 

It's an honest question and one that I hope you do not get offended by.

 

Thank you.

[Joris]

I'll give a longer awnser in the morning but most people are completely ignorant to what has happened in WWII. For me it's brilliant!

[mcspool]

Hi Mark, although I'm not Joris or Enigma, I'm Dutch too. Basically, Holland moved on after WW2. Yes, the war had a huge impact, but also many people led their lives as they were used to. The Dutch are renowed for making the most of a situation. After the war there was a huge amount of work to be done, rebuilding the country and economy (just like in the UK and many other countries). Most of the battle rubbish and scars were removed, it's a small country you know and we use every single square inch of it.

 

There was a time our hobby was frowned upon, but the past decades show time are changing, maybe because the generation who lived through the war as children are now retiring and reflecting on their lives and becoming more mellow?

 

Although I was born in the 60s and have an open mind towards Germany's role during WW2, I was speechless when I first (some 10? years ago) turned into the entrance at the War & Peace show only to find the traffic being controlled by guys dressed up as WW2 German soldiers!!! Apparently the fact that the Germans were "bad" was somewhere stuck in my mind. A recent poll showed only the youngest generation has no hard feelings towards the Germans. So, apparently, those feelings can be handed down a couple of generations (who did not have to live through it) before it wears off.

 

Hope this helps,

Hanno

Edited September 15, 2008 by mcspool

[Mark]

Hanno

 

My apologies for forgetting you, so this question can be opened up to all the people in Europe who were affected by the war and after. I do not want to turn this into who was to blame etc, just as the question asks.

 

Thank you

[Tony B]

Anyone brought up during the 1950/60's in a place that was occupied will have slightly ambivalent feelings to the German's. Playing the blame game dosen't help, though it can still feel a bit arkward at times. Living around the physical remains of an occupation and being influenced by those who endured it, the remains are just there, its like being intrested in the house at the corner of the street. One thing I did learn is that freedom is important, so is prejudice, don't hate because of what someone is, if you do want to hate have a damm good reason for hating that organisation/person. Difficult to put into words, but I'm sure Joris, Hanno, Martylee and the rest will understand the reasoning.

[Enigma]

Mcspool had a very good reply, I'll give some of my opinions.

 

For me its special to live in the netherlands on account of its WW2 history.

 

It gives me a opportunity to meet veterans who fought and suffered in the war. Offcourse its a double edged sword.

 

I enjoy the whole WW2 scene like MV's, veterans, history etc. BUT its a hobby based on suffering.

So for me its important to show the veterans they didn't do it for nothing.

I have veterans and their wifes who I call Granddad and grandmother. Another veteran I consider a close friend.

 

Commemorations are relatively close which makes events easier.

 

I feel gratitude for the freedom I enjoy even if I never suffered war or occupation. Maybe its sounds like a cliche to enjoy freedom but there you go.

 

The thing which I feel strong about are the cemeterys. I visit the Uden warcemetery every years with veterans of the Welsh division. Theire comrades and friends are buried there, so tragic.

I feel a honoray debt to remember now and when the veterans are unable to attend or have past on.

 

I play a small part in getting permission to search for 2 missing 43rd Recce's nearby.

 

Offcourse lots of people don't know our history or just don't care. That's also freedom. Its their right. I do care like so many people.

For the average Dutchman the war isn't very visible or a major concern.

Except for the Market Garden and May events, you can sometimes not avoid it.

 

Commemorations here are a big thing.

City centres blocked of for MV drives for or with veterans. In 2004 the Nijmegen bridge (a motorway) was blocked for a remembrance drive.

People by the side of the road of all walks of life and types.

Oldder people, children, guys who want to be tough guys but still wave knowing their mates would make fun of that, buissenissmen, painters etc.

 

Actually at the Welsh memorial in Den Bosch was a ceremony I attended. A painter who was working on a nearby house stopped and came over in his overalls to pay his respect - very moving.

 

On sept 18, 19 and 20 we attended 3 different commemorations. Even 2 of our British friends came over and took a trailered Jeep specially for the events.

This weekend a remembrance / re-enactment event.

 

October, liberation of Den Bosch. We are members of the remembrance committe. Looking forward to meeting up with the veterans again.

 

You should attend some of the events if you can...

 

Sorry for my incoherent answer, I type as I think of things to say.

 

-We will remember-

[Mark]

Thank you for your reply and never feel sorry for what you say as it seems to come straight from the heart.

 

Thanks

[Jack]

Bloody good question Mark.

[mcspool]

A recent poll showed only the youngest generation has no hard feelings towards the Germans. So, apparently, those feelings can be handed down a couple of generations (who did not have to live through it) before it wears off.

 

Here's an example of how the attidude slowly - very slowly! - starts to shift: http://www.dag.nl/1070067/Nieuws/Artikelpagina-Nieuws/Standbeeld-voor-Duitse-soldaat.htm

This is a Dutch newspaper article about the actions of some people to erect a statue for a German soldier, Karl-Heinz Rosch. In 1944, he saved the lives of two children who were living in the farm he was billetted in. When the farm came under fire, he made sure the kids were safe. When he turned back to get his rifle, he was killed by a grenade in the courtyard where the kids had been playing.

A local man is raising funds to make a statue, others think Karl-Heinz should not be remembered by having his own statue. It's an exemple of how deeply embedded the feelings are against the former oppressor. Interestingly, in this case it's the youth who are opposing this initiative.

 

Complex stuff, eh?

 

H.

[Guest catweazle (Banned Member)]

i would oppose that on the grounds that they were there uninvited,if they hadnt of been the kids wouldnt of been in danger anyway.

[Enigma]

I must add that German Soldiers who refused to execute civilians got shot themselves. Some Germans refused and indeed were executed.

[Tugger]

i would oppose that on the grounds that they were there uninvited,if they hadnt of been the kids wouldnt of been in danger anyway.

 

Fair point but if he were enlisted during the war then agreed, he wasn't invited, but as an individual he might not have had much choice over his posting.

 

(Tugger: playing Devil's advocate since the gospel according to Matt 4.1)

[Tony B]

An odd point on this discussion. A lot of older people in Jersey will tell you that most of the German Army were OK, very correct and polite in dealings with the locals. It was the 'Hanger's on' especially Organisation Todt, that were despised. It is proably splitting hairs but thankfully we won't have to come to terms with an armed invader on our doorstep. As for prejudice lasting a couple of generations, unfortunatley a lot longer than that, what about the 'Demands' for apology for the slave trade and the 'American Crusaders' being mentioned in the Middle East? I'm afraid it will take a lot longer to dissapate than we all hope for.

[25 pounder]

Hi everybody ,

As a citizen of a Belgian village , I have to remind you that we had the German Army two times on a "visit" , 1914 , they came over and stayed almost all over the country for four years , bringing real terror to the people , massive excecutions , burning down city's and villages , bringing lots of damage to the population and goods.

After the first WW , almost everybody felt a big hate to the German population , and with the outbreak of WW II , this was the main reason that lots of people tried to escape , mainly to France , to stay ahead of the German Army , in vain , because the German army reached the North Sea , before the refugees could cross the border . During the four years of occupation , the population got "used" to the German presence , fraternization began , shops had German clients , some girls fell in love with German soldiers , etc . The situation normalized , until the D-Day landings , when people realized Germany would not win this war , attempts , sabotage acts , the war came closer again , lots of young men enlisted to fight the ennemy ( some men changed the German uniform to that of the resistance ..)

After the war , Germans were not wanted in our region , eg, my grandfather personally resisted when I and my parents told him we made friendshiop with a German family from Frankfurt , that was in the seventies . He told us that no german ever would put foot on his property again !!!

I think the people of our generation do not longer blaim the German people of what has happened , as we grow older , we realize that a whole nation cannot be hold resposable of what a few men have brouht to mankind .

I personally have respect for every soldier , as they were only doing their job , some enjoyed , others didn't , on risc of their own life.

[Naruto]

For me it's a little different, I got enrolled by my father’s hobby. When he was around 16 (I think) he was interested in cars (born in 1961), his dad came up with the idea to let him restore an ww2 Jeep not some race car, because it's saver Due to speed limit etc.

When he restored the Jeep he got more and more interested in the ww2 and other vehicles. After his first Jeep he restored another one and started with an Halftrack m5 international. Then my sister was born and a little I was also born. So he got less time for the hobby. He stacked the Halftrack but still drove around with the Jeeps. My mom and dad even married in this Jeep.

When I turned 16 I was of course interested in the ww2 vehicles due to the events we attended. Also on that time I learned some restoration skills (restored a crosser and jamathi). So the idea was to start with the restoration of the halftrack m5 with my dad, Ernest, Glenn and myself.

By the years I learned more restoration skills and also about the ww2 especially about armored vehicles. We had still the wish to restore a Sherman one day. And in 2003 we got a Priest (which is based on an m4a3) now were still working on that and want to get it running next year.

Also the Halftrack is now almost finished. Due to engine problems it took us a while. We had an event in Ijselstijn and were almost ready to go with the Halftrack. But then on the first test drive we had a big engine failure. After that event we did some minor work on the Halftrack but lost our motivation, but nowadays we got our motivation back and it runs great so now we can finish it.

Also to point out is that I was in the beginning a little more interested in the mechanics and vehicles of the ww2, but then after a while you want to now more about what happened and in what conditions there was fought.

We now also have an website with our restoration work: http://www.priestm7b1.nl

[Enigma]

A Jamathi?

My father had one years ago!

I've seen the website on the Priest, a lot of work!

Good luck.