Rick W Posted September 27, 2007 Share Posted September 27, 2007 Loosely related to MV's, especially if you got a Reo I suppose! Has anyone on here had any experience with bio-fuels, more so bio-diesel. Not just in the use of it, but primarily in the production aspects of it. The import of the equipment from another country, the distribution of it, the supply of the waste oil to convert to bio-diesel. Bit of a long shot, but no harm in asking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony B Posted September 27, 2007 Share Posted September 27, 2007 Waste oil, vegtable, is a quircky subject,. According to the EEC (say no more) It is now hazourdous waste and requires a permit to dispose of. Also as it was sold for food it cannot be recycled for other uses ie fuel VAT again. Bit of a pain as I used to gloam the old frying oil of a mates chip shop to run an old diseiel Hanamog dump truck on around the stables and feilds. Add a couple of pints of parrafin or meths or old petrol, whatever was handy, the thing chugged about quite happy. The biggest problem was cold mornings. Procedure was light garden parrafin weed gun. Stick on brick under sump till vapour came out of dipstick. Add a few minutes under fuel tank, then hit starter motor with hammer. If all else failed hang on back of Landy hit about thirty and drop clutch. Ah the determination of youth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick W Posted September 27, 2007 Author Share Posted September 27, 2007 Times have changed now Tony! The use of Bio-fuels rose by60% last year in the US alone! And there are incentives to produce it! 2,500litres of it tax free, and clean enough to run in brand new cars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony B Posted September 27, 2007 Share Posted September 27, 2007 Unfortunatley last time I checked only 2 outlets in the entire UK. I'd use it if i could find it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.O.S. Posted September 27, 2007 Share Posted September 27, 2007 There are 2 diesel production options - 1) Plant which processes new or used vegetable oils, producing biodiesel and a glycerine residue 2) Plant fed by oilseed rape direct from the combine, producing biodiesel and a cake residue suitable for stock feed A guy in East Anglia pioneered production of biodiesel from oilseed rape, got a full scale plant up and running and got clobbered by our political system which did not want him to succeed, they closed him down in the end. Perhaps he was a year or so too soon...... Anyway, he got so fed up he is launching a range of home-use plants, claims cost works out at approx 47p per litre all road legal, but I suspect this is based on cost of production of oilseed rape, not the market price. If you grow it or can buy from neighbouring farmer, all well and good. My neighbouring farmer looked at possibility of setting up a local cooperative to produce heating oil using this gear, and decided the economics were too iffy, so I did not bother to go into it in detail. I cannot find details at present, but am very well acquainted with his accountant and will get info for you if you are interested - PM me if this is the case. Certainly there is no great rush at present to grow rape for biofuel, must tell you something about the economics of it. Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony B Posted September 28, 2007 Share Posted September 28, 2007 Problem with discussing this subject is you start to skirt'Polotics'. Sorry Jack. There is another 2.9p per litre tax rise due on fuel anytime now. Unless the political situation changes Bio diesel will not take off. A lot of rape seed is imported as are other oil seeds, it is a valuable crop for food stuffs, there are also various obscure EEC regulations that complicate matter. Not that the rest of the EEC seem to bother with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick W Posted September 28, 2007 Author Share Posted September 28, 2007 The economics of oil seed rape for making it are very touch and go, the best alternative is waste vegetable oil which you can get for free from your local chippy, as they normally have to pay to get it taken away. Even if you have to buy it in, it only costs 27p. The economics of using WVO work out at about 47p tops, with a retail of 88p -ish. Would you use it if it was available locally and it was cheaper than standard diesel? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony B Posted September 28, 2007 Share Posted September 28, 2007 Rick, the EEC (Bless'em) have declared waste vegtable oil as a hazardous waste. Therefore to remove it you need a permit. It cannot be used for vehicle fuel. Why? Basically the effect it has on drains if you pour it down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick W Posted September 28, 2007 Author Share Posted September 28, 2007 I think you are partially right there regarding hazardous waste. But us being a vehicle garage have a hazardous waste licence anyway. To produce domestically you dont need a licence. To produce it commercially you need an IPPC licence which does cost anywhere from £1500 up, depending on the volume you produce. If you collect the WVO a licence costs £150 per 2 years. Renewable Transport Fuel Obligation "In the future, the DoT estimate that up to 1/3 of the fuel in the UKtransport sector could be produced from home grown Bio-fuels" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marmite!! Posted September 28, 2007 Share Posted September 28, 2007 Biofuels.. Borneo is now facing total destruction.. http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1286104,00.html Watch video... so what's so green about biofuels then :dunno: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick W Posted September 28, 2007 Author Share Posted September 28, 2007 No,no,no,no,and no. That is Bio-fuel petrol, and yes am well aware of the destruction of rainforests. That is mainly through the production and the Wests (and China!) appetite for palm oil. Waste vegetable oil you get from you local chippys, or big tubs of cooking oil. Or if you want to get clever from Oil seed rape, or corn. Ever wondered why you see so many fields of yellow rape plants these days compared to 10 years ago? By 2008 all diesel you buy on the forecourt will have a minimum of 5% bio derived fuel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marmite!! Posted September 28, 2007 Share Posted September 28, 2007 No,no,no,no,and no. That is Bio-fuel petrol, and yes am well aware of the destruction of rainforests. Thought this thread was aboout biofuels in general not just waste oil :dunno: A Sky News investigation has revealed that filling up with bio diesel containing palm oil is helping to destroy some of the world's most precious rainforests. & what about the global wheat stocks at their lowest levels for 26 years - with a further fall likely due to farmers growing crops for bio-diesle :dunno: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony B Posted September 28, 2007 Share Posted September 28, 2007 Bio fuel can cover a multitude of stuff. I know of a transport firm near me that also has a pig farm. When a housing estate was built near the farm years ago, people complained about the smell :dunno: Peter installed a bio digester he now produces all his own electricity and sells it back to the National grid. Pigs make a loss but the electricity it to valuable to get rid of them. The Irish used excess milk to produce alcohol as a fuel. There was a project ten or so years ago in UK to run generators from willow wood, farmers even planted the crops, also chicken waste. These ideas ran up against bureaucracy and failed. Brazil was using bio ethanol as a fuel back in 1970's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick W Posted September 28, 2007 Author Share Posted September 28, 2007 I never realised you were so "earth-friendly" Lee! You are quite right, you can make fuel out of just about anything that grows these days. And, yes, you are right about wheat stocks falling which is largely due to bio-crops. Bio -crops also need a high level of fertilizer, intensive farming. So you are solving one problem and creating another. Also the cost/carbon footprint of converting raw vegetable matter into bio-ethanol as opposed to fossil fuel is virtually the same. Palm oil has got to be the most intensely farmed and destructive agriculture around the world at the moment. And Tony is right Brazil used to be fairly dependent on imported petrol, now they are totally self sufficient in bio-ethanol and Volkswagen has produced a car specifically for Brazil to run on Bio-ethanol, called the Gol. When I started this thread I initially wanted to know if anyone had bought or used any oil converters, and if so what company was it? 8-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony B Posted September 28, 2007 Share Posted September 28, 2007 If you really want a'converter' ask Saab, back in the 40's they did serious development work on Producer gas vehicles, running on wood chips heated In an anaerobic atmosphere. I believe the Italian military had similar vehicles in the 1930's. the original Otto cycle engine ran on coal dust, now we have fluid bed technology. Its all there but the require economic and legislative backing to work.hydrogen is another alternative, 2 buses have been operating around London for a couple of years, one was actually use to convey the Olympic reps about. these were Mercedes built and operated by First Group. smashing bits of kit but at £1,000,000 each and the extensive support unite required your back to 'Whose paying for it all?' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtistsRifles Posted September 28, 2007 Share Posted September 28, 2007 Those would be the two fuel cell buses that can be seen running along the A12/A127 at regular intervals. Yes?? Always empty. There's a hydrogen filling point at the BP station on the A127 just outside Romford thats got more security than Fort Knox!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abn deuce Posted September 28, 2007 Share Posted September 28, 2007 for more on the economics of bio-fuels check out this months issue of National Geographic covers the corn , soybean and sugar cane growing and convertion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony B Posted September 29, 2007 Share Posted September 29, 2007 Those would be the two fuel cell buses that can be seen running along the A12/A127 at regular intervals. Yes?? Always empty. There's a hydrogen filling point at the BP station on the A127 just outside Romford thats got more security than Fort Knox!! Yep but as long as the bus runs on time the company gets paid. Passengers just mess things up. :-D they were quite succesful and were great to drive. Trouble is the support gear reqiured. I think that Bio ethanol/disiel will be the most viable option, when the 'political' descions are made to get out of the way. At least our kit could run on that, bear in mind another 2.9 p per litre tax is due next week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dakman Posted October 2, 2007 Share Posted October 2, 2007 If anyone DOES find an outlet for bioDIESEL, before you try it beware the substantive rumour that it will collect any dross in the tank and deposit it in the fuel filters, thereby blocking them. And dont think that having a clean tank to start with will cure the problem, 'cos this stuff will scour the coating that the tank is lined with during manufacture. If you are aware of this and are prepared to carry spare filters until all the dross has been carried forward, then there are no other reasons I know of not to try it. It will certainly better-lubricate your injectors and pump than the standard forecourt rubbish! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony B Posted October 2, 2007 Share Posted October 2, 2007 Don't remember that problem on the Hanamog and dumper that I used to play with. Mind you the Hanny ran on any 4 out of 6 but never the same 4 and the dumper was well.. a dumper. ah the good old days when you fought to shovel FYM just to drive the vehicles. :roll: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Mayhem Posted October 2, 2007 Share Posted October 2, 2007 The fuel increases always stimulate demand for alternatives, I would be very interested if anyone can answer the original query, and, can anyone put me wise to the legality of this: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abn deuce Posted October 3, 2007 Share Posted October 3, 2007 seem as long as the tax man get his cut its ok . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Posted October 3, 2007 Share Posted October 3, 2007 The fuel increases always stimulate demand for alternatives, I would be very interested if anyone can answer the original query, and, can anyone put me wise to the legality of this: Watching that it seems as long as you fill a couple of forms out and then you are Ok to carry on using it, and so will everyone else. :whistle: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick W Posted October 3, 2007 Author Share Posted October 3, 2007 You only have to register with Customs and Excise if you are producing over 2,500 litres a week. The govt at the minute is quite happy for people to make and produce their own fuel- "they envisage that up to a third of people will produce their own fuel within 5 years" A small ready made system to put in your garage costs about £900, which includes filter, tanks and a pump with nozzle to fuel your vehicle. The reason you have to change the fuel filter at least with your first tank is because bio-diesel is a very effective cleaner, so the more gunked up your tank or lines are you may have to change it a few more times. Bio-diesel isnt recommended for pre-1996 vehicles because natural rubber is used in the fuel lines which b-d eats! You can use b-d in pre 1996 vehicles but you would have to change the fuel lines for the modern day synthetic fuel lines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boneheaddread Posted October 17, 2007 Share Posted October 17, 2007 Hi, I and most of my friends have been running on 50/50 mix of chip oil and diesel for years will no ill efects in anything that its been put in , Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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