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2 hours ago, 10FM68 said:

Have you decided yet what markings it will have when it's finished?  Which leads me to the question, 'what colour were Canadian-built vehicles in WWII painted?'  Were they US Olive Drab, British SCC15 or one of its predecessors or did the Canadians use a colour of their own?  I'm thinking about vehicles they supplied to the British and to their divisions, originally in UK, then fighting at Dieppe, in Italy and in NWE.

Have a look at this not mine something I blagged off the web some years ago, I'll dig out my CMD design records and see if I can find any more information for you that is contemporary 

Second World War

A representative sample of Canadian Army overseas vehicle markings from the Second World War is given here.1

Vehicle Colours

The subject of vehicle colours is a difficult one to discuss via electronic means due to the variance in monitor settings and a lack of consistency regarding the actual subject matter. Colour photography was not widespread in the Second World War, and accurate reporting of shades and hues has been difficult to obtain. Any discussion of military vehicle colours should be taken with that understanding in mind. The effect of sun, age, precipitation, mud, etc. on military paint schemes should also be taken into account when considering these matters.

Paint

The Canadian Army followed closely British Army specifications for painting and marking vehicles, as the bulk of the overseas army was located in the United Kingdom before combat employment in Europe. As the Canadian Army preferred to draw its equipment from domestic sources, some modifications to this practice were made; some vehicles came from British stocks in the UK early in the war, and the 5th Canadian (Armoured) Division drew a large number of British vehicles when it arrived in Italy in late 1943. Paint manufactured in Canada was done to British requirements as described by their War Office, though some modifications were made on occasion to comply with manufacturing conditions in Canada.

The basic requirements as laid down by the War Office were that paint be of a flat ("matte") finish, in order to reduce reflectiveness. Paint had to be able to be resistant to poison gas, and easily decontaminated. The use of lead compounds was subject to restrictions, as the dangers of lead poisoning were known at the time and were especially applied to paint used on vehicle interiors, particularly armoured vehicles.

Paint schemes consisted of a "basic" colour, which was applied to the whole of the vehicle (usually at the factory, with disruptive or camouflage colours applied overtop by brush or spray. Vehicles were usually painted the same basic colour at the factory - a drab green or brown - and repainted if necessary by the Army (in the event of, for example, employment in the desert or in snow-covered terrrain).

1939

Military Training Pamphlet issued in the UK in June 1939 outlined a basic series of two-colour camouflage schemes, and it is believed the Canadian Army adopted these on the outbreak of war. A series of horizontal patterns of Khaki Green G3 (No.23 Middle Bronze Green) and Light Green No.5 (Light Bronze Green) were applied to vehicles.

According to the Milifax article

At some as yet undiscovered time shortly hererafter, the British (and the Canadians) replaced Light Green No.5 with a colour known as Nobel's Dark Tarmac No.4. To the best of our knowledge in 2002, the colour is best described as a dark, muddy gray.

The date for this change was December 1940 according to one source, which described the colour unhelpfully as a "very dark grey, almost black, with just a hint of green...unless it's blue."2

1941

Amendments in 1941 changed the colours used on canvas tops and hoods, and this change is noted in Canadian Army Routine Orders (Overseas) on 14 October 1941. The change was the result of paints at that time causing damage to canvas.

In future, the following paints will be used for the disruptive painting of canvas covers and hoods of vehicles, and demands will be submitted as necessary through the D.A.D.O.S. of the formation to the Canadian Stores Depot, Crookham.

Catalogue No. HA Section H-1 Paint, camouflage, bituminous emulsion
6188 Standard Colour No.1A
6179 Standard Colour No.7

Vehicle bodies were to sprayed, as before, with Khaki Green No. 3 and Dark Tarmac No. 4.

New Colours

At this time as well, a series of Standard Camouflage Colours (SCC) were introduced to supplement, and later replace, Greens G3 and G5. The new colours were produced in both enamel for wood and metal vehicles, and in "bituminous emulsion" for use on canvas.

  • SCC No. 1a Very Dark Brown

  • SCC No. 2 Dark Brown / Service Colour / Service Drab

  • SCC No. 4 Dark Earth (not to be confused with a shade used by the Royal Air Force of the same name)

  • SCC No. 5 Light Mud

  • SCC No. 7 Dark Olive Green

  • SCC No. 11b Desert Pink

  • SCC No. 13 Jungle Green

  • SCC No. 14 Black, also known as Charcoal

  • SCC No. 15 Olive Drab

A month after the above regulations on canvas were promulgated, new orders were published by Canadian Military Headquarters, stating that only the new "paint, camouflage, bituminous emulsion" would be used on vehicle canvas. The orders outlined several colours:

  • For the top of hoods and the dark part of pattern at sides:

    • Catalogue No. HA6188 Standard Camouflage Colour No. 1A (Very Dark Brown), or failing that

    • Catalogue No. HA6184 Standard Camouflage Colour No. 14 (Black)

  • For restoring the basic khaki colour of the sides of faded hoods:

    • Catalogue No.HA6194 Standard Camouflage Colour No. 2 (Service Drab)

The whole of the upturned surfaces of hoods will in future be painted with the dark colour, standard camouflage colour No.1A, or failing that, standard camouflage colour No.14

The basic colour was changed from dark green to a dark brown, Standard Camouflage Colour No.2 (SCC No.2), a dark brown, due to shortages of chromic oxide, used in the production of green paint. Existing paint stocks of green were reserved for use on combat aircraft.

However, older vehicles were not repainted until it was necessary due to major overhauls, severe fading, modifications, or other similar reasons. Painting was not done solely to change the colour to conform to other vehicles in the new basic colour, as that was considered a waste of resources.

The complete list of the new SCCs was published in 1942, with, according to Hodges and Taylor, "idiosyncratic descriptions of the colours" with no explanation of what was meant by "dangerous."3

Colour Description in British Army MTP 46
SCC 1 Brown
SCC 1A Very dark brown
SCC 2 Cup of coffee and milk
SCC 3 Cup of tea
SCC 4 Cup of weak tea
SCC 5 Very light grey
SCC 6 Dark green
SCC 6A Very dark green
SCC 7 A useful warm green
SCC 8 Mid green (rather dangerous)
SCC 9 Light green (very dangerous)
SCC 10 Useful dull red
SCC 11 Rusty red
SCC 11A Bungalow tiles red
SCC 11B Sandy pink
SCC 12 Clean cold grey
SCC 13 Dirty grey
SCC 14 Black
1942

In 1942, a new camouflage scheme was ordered into use, as detailed in Canadian Army Overseas Routine Order 2383 and Army Council Instruction 1160.4

1944

By early 1944, with a preponderance of US designed and built vehicles (particularly AFVs) entering British and Canadian service, the decision was made to retain these vehicles in their factory provided monotone Olive Drab.

In terms of unit markings for my tanker the following is currently in my mind, there were only two contracts for Dodge Chrysler tankers both of these were for British contracts so British operated would be logical and historically accurate. 

The date of manufacture of my truck is at the end of the first contract so could possibly indicate either Italian campaign or Normandy invasion. Currently I'm leaning towards Italian campaign late 1943 attached to a REME Infantry field workshop unit that my Father was a member of, but time will tell.  

Pete

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7 hours ago, 67burwood said:

Looking good Pete, keep up the good work 👍👍

Seamus 

Thanks Seamus I think we share an affinity in terms of welding fresh air. 

 I was at Capel this year under taking a bit of  Boarder Raiding and  had the opportunity of seeing your truck there, sadly you were not around or I'd have said hello

Congratulations,  the WoT looked spot on,  a real testament to your hard graft and determination.

Pete

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Many thanks for that, Pete.  It is interesting to see just how frequently there were new orders issued about colour schemes.  One might have expected that, with a war on, things might have remained stable for rather longer than they did - notwithstanding the need to find alternatives to the scarce chromium in green paint and its priority for the RAF.  I still find it remarkable, though, that we lost track of these colour schemes so quickly.  It may be 80 years ago now, but it wasn't when, for example, Humbrol were developing paints for the modeller and, somehow, it never seemed to cross their minds that accurate tints might be appreciated.  They settled for 'khaki' 'dark earth' and 'dark green' and that had to do for decades thereafter.  even today I cannot find a modelling paint which is remotely like the right shade for battledress, which is bizarre really.

 

As for your choice of markings, an  infantry division REME field workshop sounds good - it also gives you the chance to 'be a bit different' as REME vehicles often had (and have) something a bit extra!  I like this picture of a Humber Snipe.  It looks to be a bit of a hot-rod!  The markings suggest it probably belonged to CREME of 7 Armoured Division!

v.jpg.61192ce57e0629f769f352ade0037cb0.jpg

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8 hours ago, Pete Ashby said:

Thanks Seamus I think we share an affinity in terms of welding fresh air. 

 I was at Capel this year under taking a bit of  Boarder Raiding and  had the opportunity of seeing your truck there, sadly you were not around or I'd have said hello

Congratulations,  the WoT looked spot on,  a real testament to your hard graft and determination.

Pete

Thanks Pete, much appreciated, hopefully meet up next year, who knows I might even have the Austin K5 there 🤔

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Hi

 

Great work !

"Canadian long block engines for right hand drive trucks have a very different manifold set up compared to the Left hand drive version which is unique to D15 and D60 range of military trucks .  It was pure luck that this one turned up or the project would have stalled badly."

 

The Canadian long block engines are relatively common in Australia. I had one in a 1941 army Plymouth 12 cwt ute and another in my 1946 Dodge DD1-16 ute , both were 3  3/8" bore and 4  1/16" stroke from memory. Both Right Hand Drive of course
 

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15 hours ago, goanna said:

Hi

 

Great work !

"The Canadian long block engines are relatively common in Australia. I had one in a 1941 army Plymouth 12 cwt ute and another in my 1946 Dodge DD1-16 ute , both were 3  3/8" bore and 4  1/16" stroke from memory. Both Right Hand Drive of course
 

Thank you

The RH drive exhaust manifold for the long block Chrysler engine is not any easy beast to hunt down here in the UK, I think you guys had a grater variety of modified commercial Dodge Chrysler kit issued to you at your end of the world than we did here. 

Pete

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More progress all be it of a small nature, .as I've noted elsewhere it's the small stuff that just eats up time.  

I'm continuing the fitting out of the dash so attention has now focused on the gauges. Their general condition is fair to good but they need overhauling while the bezels and cases need cleaning and repainting.

This is how they look when brought out of storage, the ammeter and fuel gauge cluster is representative of the overall condition for the rest of the gauges.

SDC18232.JPG.ec9c1d0063a51d961ed0787fb36cd0c4.JPG

 

The bezels, glass, face plate and gauges are disassembled into their component parts, all metal parts are de-rusted,  etch primed and a top coat of  semi gloss black. The case has an etch primer then a top coat of weld through primer that is just about the right shade for the original dull nickle plate finish.

The glass needs treating with care as the numbers are screen printed on the inside face and can be easily damaged so I use cotton wool dipped in warm water with a little non salt detergent added to carefully swab both sides.

The next step is to check out the operating mechanisms of the gauges.  A careful clean with a dry  soft paint brush then lubricate all moving parts and pivots with watchmakers  oil applied sparingly with a pin.  Thats the red stuff in the little bottle with the pin beside it in the photo below,  then cut a couple of new case gaskets out of thin card and reassemble now repeat for the ammeter and fuel cluster then finally the speedo.

Here's the oil pressure and temperature cluster all ready for reassembly .

IMG_6745.JPG.3efa6440f6dee3c7818011a75dec4439.JPG 

 

Pete

Edited by Pete Ashby
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  • 1 month later...

While removing paint from the inside of the cab roof I came across the mark in the photo below, it's in blue pencil under the factory red oxide undercoat directly onto the raw steel and looks like the number 20.

  I wonder if it's a welders identification mark ?  There are a number of gas welds that go to make up the cab roof.  Probably done at this stage of the war by a female welder, uncovering  it was a small moment of connection over the 80 year time lapse.

IMG_6918.JPG.16504148df80507acda09cc0ac3f3379.JPG

 

This isn't the first factory assembly mark I've come across on this truck however the other two have been on top of the factory G3 they are shown below circled in red

This mark was on the seat base in white paint, it appeared on the seat base that had not been removed since 1943

SDC18258-Copy.JPG.7deb729e46a049188193604254c59b7a.JPG

 

And this one is in blue pencil once again this time on the front of the scuttle again on top of the factory G3

SDC18407-Copy.JPG.cb5453639b095cd3fe37f896ba06c7e6.JPG 

 

Just maybe the Canadian Dodge Chrysler equivalent of Rosie the Riveter made those marks on the truck assembly line in the Windsor plant in 1943........... who knows.   

We_Can_Do_It!.jpg.d4b4b27e069a926684a86e5baed2a071.jpg

 

Pete

Edited by Pete Ashby
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12 hours ago, Alex van de Wetering said:

That's a nice find Pete.....a messages from the past. So, are you saving the one on the Scuttle by masking a small section when repaining the rest(?)

Yes it was a nice find Alex a rare human connection. 

I did carefully  consider saving the the mark on the scuttle and the others Iv'e shown here but eventually decided to record them for posterity by photography and then remove them as part of the restoration process .  

Pete

Edited by Pete Ashby
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A little more progress, the dash is now almost completed just need to fit the high beam indicator and source a main lighting switch other than that it's done, all gauges refurbished as per previous post above and the speedo has had a new glass brought in from DCM in the US and I made a new dial indicator carrier using the lid of a CD case which was just the correct thickness.  

The instrument are the standard civilian fittings this truck was the last contract in 1943 that had them,  after this all subsequent contracts had standard military round gauges and CMP style switch gear.

So this is a page from the Drivers handbook 

SDC18419.JPG.f39eb94eaaddbe1b3140be05fb8a2361.JPG

 

And this is how it all looked in the beginning

SDC18148.JPG.3e855793b7ce8c7e81122ffbb950bbca.JPG

 

SDC18151.JPG.a954d440bfe4021e7e07796dc2af3435.JPG

 

And this is how it looks now 

IMG_6935.JPG.6584313a2338461546fcc25a0bb0e604.JPG

 

IMG_6936.JPG.f20e22ef38cade763b7ef153e7a87b07.JPG

 

IMG_6937.JPG.a8cc125ea4d9da765992beb2e57b8eba.JPG 

 

After that brief interlude it's back to scraping paint off the cab roof ...... such fun.

Pete

Edited by Pete Ashby
missing words
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On 10/17/2023 at 11:50 PM, Pete Ashby said:

I did carefully  consider saving the the mark on the scuttle and the others Iv'e shown here but eventually decided to record them for posterity by photography and then remove them as part of the restoration process .  

Pete, I would have done the same. It's good that you managed to find and record them.

excellent work on the dash; a big difference!

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 4/9/2018 at 6:11 PM, Alex van de Wetering said:

Pete,

Picture attached.  Picture taken in Nijmegen, Holland, presumably first half of 1945

Source: http://www.noviomagus.nl

 

Alex

Image438.jpg

Hi Alex,

I am wondering if you can be direct me to the page at noviomagus.nl -- I would like to use the picture for the Canadian IPMS magazine. 

By the way, Canadian D-15 can be found on pages 40 and 41 of the book Steve Guthrie: Camouflage and Markings of Canadian Military Vehicles in World War Two. (Armor Color Gallery #11). The theory there is that it is vehicles passed on to 5th Canadian Armoured Division from   7th Armoured Division, when that unit left for the UK in '44.

Cheers, Martin

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14 hours ago, Martin Bendsoee said:

Hi Alex,

I am wondering if you can be direct me to the page at noviomagus.nl -- I would like to use the picture for the Canadian IPMS magazine. 

 

Cheers, Martin

Martin,

searching that website definitely is a "challenge"! You can find the D15 picture here:

https://www.noviomagus.nl/Gastredactie/Verdoorn/Cat/VerdoornCat.html

Or https://www.noviomagus.nl/Gastredactie/Verdoorn/Cat/cwdata/Image438.html

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 4/9/2018 at 6:11 PM, Alex van de Wetering said:

Pete,

Picture attached.  Picture taken in Nijmegen, Holland, presumably first half of 1945

Source: http://www.noviomagus.nl

 

Alex

Image438.jpg

Hi Alex,

More pictures of Dodges D15/D60 in Canadian service in NWE have now been posted at

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/miss...23326#p1723326

Exciting stuff, thanks to Peter Williams.

Cheers, Martin

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