Dodge D15T

[Pete Ashby]

13 minutes ago, Pete Ashby said:

I assume it would take an undercoat then a finish top coat of paint?  Any idea how that would turn out using a semi matt top coat finish? what I'm trying to avoid is a shinny gloss streak in the drip rail.

Regards

Pete

I've just looked this stuff up and it's cheap enough to get some and run some tests with it I'll post the results on how it takes semi matt paint here in the blog 

thanks again Richard for your input

Pete

[64EK26]

8 hours ago, Pete Ashby said:

Thank you Richard very useful information. 

I assume it would take an undercoat then a finish top coat of paint?  Any idea how that would turn out using a semi matt top coat finish? what I'm trying to avoid is a shinny gloss streak in the drip rail.

Regards

Pete

Hi Pete

It will take undercoat and top coat. I have used it on my MWC cellulose undercoat and semi gloss Olive Drab  and it comes up fine.  The main thing is to make sure that there are no edges on the sealer, otherwise you make have to use some high build primer before the top coat. As you say, cheap enough to have a play and perfect the application technique.

Cheers

Richard

[Pete Ashby]

Continuing work on the drip rails one of the challenges is to reproduce the curved sections of the drip rail.   

I experimented with several ideas none of which were particularity successful so I decided to produce the replacement sections that I needed as a two component item.   A curved base section then a shaped vertical section to match the required curve that could be welded onto the base.

First photo is the part completed curved repair section.  The base (blue arrow) is cut slightly wider than required,  with a small turn up edge is hammered up at 90' before the curve is formed (green arrow) this is then ground and filed back to be around 3mm deep. 

The purpose of the turn up is so that when the finished piece is attached to the cab roof there is something for the weld to bite into rather than just the flat gutter section.   Keeping the turn up as small as possible will let the base curve to be formed without distortion, it also helps to prevent the curve distorting during the welding operations.

The card board pattern at the top of the photo gives the required curve this was taken before the old rail section was removed from the cab roof. The steel base section is thin enough to shape by hand and or use a light hammer on a former.

The vertical section (red arrow) is cut extra wide at this stage, it's easier cut and shape the required curve to match the base section if left over long and helps prevents distortion during welding.

Everything is cleaned up then the vertical section is butt welded using gas Mig onto the base.  The steel I working with here is 18 gauge so it will weld at low power with a fairly low wire speed,  even so it's a case of join the dots to keep the heat out of the work.

The weld is then ground and filed to fit the curve and trimmed down to the required height.   A slight rounded profile is sanded on the outside bottom edge to reproduce the original which of course was folded from one piece of steel.

It ends up looking like this,  the ends will be trimmed to match the remaining section of drip rail it will attach to.

 

 

This is where this particular section is going at the top rear of the driver's door 

I'm sure there are other and  better ways of doing this job as it's pretty labour intensive but this seems to work for me. All I have to do make another four curved sections and two straight ones and that will be the drip rails restored.

Pete

Edited May 19, 2022 by Pete Ashby
removing a duplicate photo and adding a bit of text

[Pete Ashby]

As a bit of a break from drip rail manufacture I've started to repair the bottom rear section of the roof.

On Canadian military D series trucks the cab roof can be removed.   I assume this was an aid to shipping,  it was probably a good idea 80 years ago but now it's an absolute nightmare with regard to corrosion. 

The joint between the roof section and the back of the cab is covered by a strip of 18 gauge steel that is spot welded to the cab roof section to form a flange.

You can see it here,   cab roof section and cab back (red arrows),  with the aforementioned strip shown (green arrows). The whole thing then bolts through the bottom cab section and is held together by machine screws and nuts. 

Those  of you who are are heroically still following this blog might recall I replaced the internal matching to this strip when I covered the cab back restoration.

First off I removed the spot welds and took the external cover strip off leaving two short sections at either side of the cab door, fortunately there is virtually no corrosion there.  These short sections (red arrows below) will be butt welded to the new strip and will form a datum point to work to and from.  This now reveled the extent of the corrosion to the bottom of the roof section (blue arrows below)

Nothing for it but out with the fine slitting disc and take the whole bottom section off to a point where there was some good metal to weld to.

This is the result, ideally I'd have liked to hide the new piece behind the cover strip but his was just not an option due to the level of corrosion present.

 

Here's the new repair section butt welded into place a slow job to keep heat distortion to a minimum. the steel has been wire wheeled back to bright,  then a thin coat of weld through primer applied, that's the silver paint here.

And here it is with the top knocked off the weld and the usual hideous yellow spray paint used to give me a guide so I don't grind too much off the original roof or the new replacement section. 

When the roof is removed the weld line will require plenishing to remove the shrinkage and then final dressing with a range of grinding tools. Then the cover strip can be added using the old one as a guide for the fixing screw holes. 

Oh such fun !!, then it will be time to sort out the rear window.

Pete

 

[67burwood]

I feel your pain with these type of repairs 🤨😁

[Pete Ashby]

10 hours ago, 67burwood said:

I feel your pain with these type of repairs 🤨😁

Indeed as well you know !, it can some times feel like trying to knit fog

 

Edited May 20, 2022 by Pete Ashby

[Pete Ashby]

Towards the end of last week I got a call from the machine shop to say the block was ready for collection, Hurrah!!

Once home I flushed the water jacket with a pressure hose and compressed air gun poked inside the block cavities to stir things up a bit.  Surprisingly there was not a huge amount of rust coming out what little sediment there was, less than tea cup full, appeared more like mud.. I poked the endoscope into various orifices,  in the block just to be clear,  and everything looks pretty good  once everything had been dried off in the sun.

Next having blocked off all holes with bungs or plugs and with a sheet of hard board fixed to the block face and sump the old paint was removed from the outside of the block with various rotary wire wheels and brushes.

Now it was the turn of the oil ways to be thoroughly flushed through starting with the oil pump feed , main gallery, main bearing drilling and lastly valve chest and guides in that order and in both directions using first paraffin then blown out at high pressure with the air gun. This is a vital part of any engine rebuild as machining swarf must be removed,  if not it will wreck a newly rebuilt engine in minutes.

All surfaces were then washed off using the spray gun filled with gun cleaner to remove residual grease and oil

A light coat of clean automatic transmission oil was applied using a small brush to all the machined surfaces to prevent flash rust forming.   

With the machined surfaces recovered the block sides and ends were given one coat of etch primer, then top coat as per the previous blog entry on engine components.  

From this 

And now it looks like this

Here's the valve chest side with one new exhaust valve test fitted to make sure it's the correct one for the job, it will be removed before the cam followers and cam shaft are fitted.

 

Pete

 

Edited May 24, 2022 by Pete Ashby

[Pete Ashby]

As the block is sitting in the workshop all clean and shiny it seemed like a good idea to get some of the internal fittings out of the various tins, boxes and bags and get them bolted back into it.

Those who are accomplished engine builders may want to skip through the next few posts as I'm going to continue in a similar vain to  previous posts covering strip down.   

There will be a few detailed photos and supporting text which may be of interest to those who haven't yet tackled this sort of job.   Although this is a six cylinder engine all side valve engines are of a similar construction with only minor differences so the process is relevant no matter how many cylinders you have.

Without further a do here's the first installment of the rebuild.

What I'm trying to show here is using an endoscope to check that the oil passage  ways are clean and clear of swarf,  you can just about see the passageway in the top center of the screen,  it's a lot clearer on the instrument screen.

This gizmo is not a huge sum of money off e bay and well worth the investment.   It takes the guess work out of this sort of job and can also be used in all sorts of situations including looking for blocked household drains !!

 

Now that everything is clean the key is to keep it that way,  the last thing you need is grit getting into the internals, so keep the block covered at all times with a cloth when not actually working on it. 

I would recommend this stuff, off the web or your local motor factor,  there are several different makes but they all do the same thing.  It's a very viscous oil base full of good things like Zinc, Molybdenum and a few other additives that will stick for extended periods to running surfaces and bearings and protect them in the vital seconds before oil starts to circulate on that first start up....... nobody wants a dry start.

So in this episode I'm fitting the cam followers and can shaft into the block.

Photo of a side valve cam follower with the adjustable tappet block fitted just waiting for a dose of assembly lube to be applied.

 

This is how they have been stored on a card, numbered 1 to 12.  Number 1 at the front of the engine this ensures they go back in the same position that they came from.

You can see I'm working back from the rear of the engine here.  No real reason either way is good,  I've already fitted 8 followers into the block. 

Followers and guides have been measured using similar techniques as described in my previous posts on measuring things.  Everything was found to be well within factory spec so good to bash on.

The block needs to be upside down or on it's side for this next bit. 

I have the block mounted on a rotating engine stand it makes the job immeasurably easier and keeps everything off the deck and out of the dust and muck. I'm too old to be bent double on the floor or wrestling the block on a bench,  been there, done it many times,  got the bad knees and back to prove it.

And here are all the followers in position in the block each one has had a dose of assembly lube prior to fitting you don't need gallons of the stuff there is more than enough in the bottle to do the whole engine.

OK next up is the cam shaft this has been stored vertically wrapped in oily rags. In the photo below it's been washed in petrol and the machined surfaces rubbed over with a piece of fine grade Scotch Brite to remove any residual tarnish. Don't use emery or carborundum paper,  it will damage the machine faces and possibly leave embed fine particles of grit in the machine surfaces.....bad news.  

The rear of the cam shaft is on the left of the photo and the front with the thrust plate and drive gear hub fitted to the right.

the gear teeth in the middle of the shaft is the drive for the oil pump which has a slot in the top of it to drive the distributor so a pretty important bit of kit in any engine.

Bearing faces and have been measured against the factory specs, and the cam lobes (that's the pointy bits) have been checked for ware and or failure of the case hardened surfaces and found to good to go. 

Like wise the white metal bearings that carry the cam shaft in the block have been measured and checked and found to be well within spec and undamaged.

All the cam machined surfaces have had a dollop of lube along with the bearings in the block. The cam shaft is very carefully fed through the bearings in the block.  Two points to note here, first the edges of the cam lobes can be sharp so look out for your fingers, second and following on from the first point the sharp edges of the cam lobes will dig into the soft white metal bearings in the block if care is not exercised feeding them thorough......more bad news and negative vibes if this happens.

Here it is installed,   now the cam followers can't drop out, as they are sitting on the cam lobes so the block can be turned up the right way.

And here's a view into the valve chest with the cam followers and tappet blocks in view all sitting on the installed cam shaft.

 

That'll do for now,  more to follow tomorrow.

Pete

 

Just a reminder it's your best friend here for this job.

Edited May 26, 2022 by Pete Ashby

[Pete Ashby]

Last job for the camshaft installation is to measure the end float of shaft (gap between the thrust plate and the front bearing on the cam shaft) after the thrust plate is securely bolted in place on the front of the block. 

 I prefer to do this before the valves and springs are fitted.  If you chose to do this when the the valves are in place all the adjusters must be backed completely off to remove any valve spring force on the cam followers and the oil pump or distributor must not be fitted if it's cam gear driven, the cam shaft needs to float free in the supporting bearings to make the measurement.

There are two ways to take the measurement both are perfectly fine. 

Quickest easiest and cheapest is to use a set of feeler gauges which everyone will have in their tool kit. 

The second that takes just a bit more time to set up and arguably is more accurate is to use a dial gauge.

This photo shows the set up the measure the end float using both methods

Red arrows,  thrust plate bolts and thrust plate 

Blue arrow, end of the camshaft with the drive gear hub in place and the end of the dial gauge resting on the end of the shaft.

Green arrow,  here using the feeler gauge method to gauge the gap between the plate and the end of the cam shaft

To take the measurement push the cam shaft as far back against the thrust plate as possible by hand.....do not just give it a quick tap with a hammer !. 

Now using a small pri bar or large flat blade screwdriver inserted between the thrust plate and the drive hub gently apply force to move the cam shaft forward..... your not trying to open a tin of paint here. 

Take the measurement and repeat three times they should all be about the same give or take a fraction then divide by three to get the average.

 

Below the dial gauge mounted on a magnetic base stand.  Using the feeler gauge I had 8 thou (0.008") end float, using the dial gauge (which is metric)  I got  0.185mm  this equates to 7 thou (0.0073").  

Manufacturing tolerance and maximum permissible end float due to operational ware are in the manufacturers spec for the particular engine being worked on. 

 Rule of thumb for a 6 cylinder side valve camshaft the maximum permissible end float is around 10 thou (0.010 ") with an operational tolerance of 2 to 6 thou ( 0.002" to 0.006" ) I'm just a tad outside this but inside having to fit another thrust plate.

Why is all this important ? 

Well the camshaft will try to wind itself backwards and forwards out of the block due to the forces from the valve springs which are applied to the cam lobes  transmitted to via the cam followers.  Also by the timing chain being dragged round at the front end by the crankshaft gear that drives the camshaft gear. 

The effect of excessive end float leads to ware of cam shaft lobes,  lateral tooth ware on the gear that drives either the oil pump or distributor depending on your type of engine design and in extreme cases it will mess up the timing chain and sprocket gears in short bad news all round. 

Having said all that there has to be some free movement hence the operational tolerance of 0.002 to 0.006 thou to take account of thermal expansion of the shaft or else it would start to bind as everything warms up.

Bit wordy this post sorry,  but it's something that can be over looked and and it's important to the overall operation of the engine.  I like to think of the cam shaft as the bit that joins all the other twirly bits in the engine together to do the right thing at the right time.

Pete  

 

 

  

Edited May 26, 2022 by Pete Ashby
missing word

[Pete Ashby]

The next task after fitting the the cam shaft is to replace the valves, lapping of the valves and seats was covered in a previous post. what follows will be common for all side valve motors with slight variations due to individual manufactures design.  The basic concepts are also good for overhead valve engines to,  the exception is side valve V8 motors we'll not go there as they are in a world of their own with split guides and other wired bits and bobs dreamed up by dear old Henry. 

This is the kit that's need for this job all pretty self explanatory with perhaps the exception of the spring compressor,  that's the tool that looks a bit like a set of mole grips in the photo below more about that in a minute. 

Valve springs are stored on a board in the same order that they were removed,  cylinder numbers 1 to 6 are marked on the board.  In the photo below I have already fitted Nos 6 and 5 exhaust valves.  In this engine they are painted yellow the inlet springs are a brown/red colour, often the springs aren't marked at all just plain steel. Bit more about springs in the next post.

Here's a close up of the side valve spring compressor.  A really useful tool to have in your box if you have a side valve engine. 

There were some cheap copies around on the web at one time.  I'm told they are not very well made, originals like this one come up on ebay from time to time they are not cheap but well worth the money.

You can just about do the job with a set  valve spring compressors made for overhead engines  but the proper kit makes the job much easier.

 

 

Next  photo shows the component parts that go to make up the valve and spring assembly, this is an exhaust valve for this particular engine but the inlets will be similar.

Valve and spring are self explanatory

Green arrow, 

Spring retainer these come in slightly different forms depending on the engine design this type is a Rota cap. On Long block side valve Dodge Chrysler engines it's fitted to the exhaust valves only.  It's a small race that allows the valve to spin freely during the opening and closing sequence .  Among other cleaver things It helps heat dissipation into the Stellite seat  and prevents flat spots on the valve face as well as supposedly helping with cam lobe ware.

Red arrows,

know variously as Collets (I  know them as this),  Valve keepers or Cotters,  what ever they'r called they do the same job.   Namely to lock the spring retainer in place on the valve stem and keep a residual 'at rest tension' on the spring that keeps the valve closed tight on the seat.

Note collets are cone shaped, the Rota cap has a matching angled recessed hole that matches the cone angle . Collets are fitted narrow end of the cone facing up into the spring retainer,  at rest spring tension holds everything together.

Blue arrow,

grooves machined into the bottom of the valve stem.  These locate the collets in place on the valve stem there are two on this particular design some manufactures engines will only have one you need to know what you have because the collet types are not interchangeable. 

 

The photo below shows what it looks like when assembled in the engine you can see the collets just poking out the bottom of the Rota cap the retainer will sit a little lower when there is residual force from the spring locking everything together.

That will do for now more to follow

Pete

 

Edited July 13, 2022 by Pete Ashby

[Pete Ashby]

The previous  preamble was unnecessary for many I suspect,l but hopefully useful to a few,  this post is about actually getting the thing installed in the block.

Valve springs often have one end where the coils are more tightly wound than the other end,  these are known as progressive springs it's all to do with harmonics and limiting stress caused by momentum in the spring,  valve bounce in it's simplest form.   If you are that way minded and want to know more google "why does a  valve springs have a different number of coils  at either end"  there's loads of detailed info out there from the basic to the PHD level physics of spring design and operation.

 If you don't need to know why all you need to know is the end with the closest wound coils goes nearest the valve head so for side valves it's up and for overhead valves it's down...... Simples..... as that little fury critter is apt to say.

Having said that the springs in this engine are not progressive wound I checked and double checked even measuring the coil gaps with a vernier caliper to be sure so they will go back in exactly as they out.

So to the task in hand:

Take the correct spring for the correct position in the correct orientation ensure the tappet adjuster is screwed fully down and the cam follower is on the Heel ( lowest portion) of the cam.   Fit the spring retainer and wiggle them both into position under the guide and above the tappet adjuster, this can be a bit of a fiddle on some engines.   Do not resort to levering the spring into position with a screwdriver you'll damage the spring and possibly lose an eye when it flies out and smacks you in the face apart from possibly deforming and or cracking the spring.

Take the corresponding valve and add a smear of assembly lube to the stem portion that that runs in the guide (that's the shinny bit about an inch or so below the head of the valve)  keep it off the section that sits in the port orifice or else you won't be able to see across the workshop when you do your first start up. Put the merest smear of lube on the on the valve seat if you don't intend to start the engine soon after rebuild.

Insert the valve in the  guide (don't just drop it in you may damage the ground sealing surfaces on the seat and or valve that you spent hours lapping in).   Carefully feed in the stem holding the valve by the head .  Hold it just off the seat and ensure it will slide up and down the guide with out binding,  slight turn left and right as you do this will move the lube around the guide and stem surface.

Take the valve spring compressor,  compress the spring making sure the valve stem feeds through the spring retainer plate and appears out the bottom,  keep compressing the spring until the collet grooves are visible.

Do not keep winding the compressor up until the spring is jammed tight fully closed and you can't get another once out of the compressor, this could crack or damage the spring on smaller engines, just enough is good enough here.

Note:  If this task is being done with the sump on  make sure all holes back into the block are closed off with rags, it's a dead cert that at least one collet will drop out and go strait down into the sump,  ask me how I know ?....... Oh,  how we laughed after a very long day in a heatwave back in the day.

This next bit can be fiddly on side valve motors,  over head versions are easier as you can see what you're doing and gravity is not working against you....... Eh? ......have a look at the photo below.   I have one collet in position,  narrow end up remember, (red arrow right ) the second one is going in with tweezers (red arrow left ) turning the block on it's side can help a bit. 

 This is not a job to do after a bad day at the office, row with your partner/cat/dog/neighbor whatever.   It will try the patience after one or other or both collets drop out for the umpteenth time and your only on cylinder No2.

Some of the angst can be alleviated by applying a small amount of thick grease to the internal surface of the collet so it sticks to the stem,  assembly lube works quite well too but everything gets a bit slippery after a bit. 

. 

 

Photo below,  both collets in (red arrow) and correctly seated in the stem grooves

 

Now slowly release the compressor it doesn't hurt to just pinch the collets between finger and thumb while doing this to ensure they seat in the retainer and don't get knocked out of the stem grooves as the spring pressure takes hold of them. 

It should now look like the photo below, notice here the collets are now fully up into the base of spring retainer,  on some designs there will be just a small shoulder showing the bottom of the retainer the key is make sure they are properly seated and locked by the spring retainer plate.

And that's it really, take your time keep everything clean and grit free and the jobs a doddle... most of the time. 

Just for completeness a photo of an inlet valve from this engine with the standard type of spring retainer that will be found in many other engine types.

Finally to prove I wasn't having a dig at my Ford V8 owning friends and associates here's  a diagram for a Ford flat head V8 valve pack ( blagged off the web sorry no credits) very different set up as you can see

Setting the lash ( tappet or valve clearance  gap)  is a black art involving a bench grinder, three maidens at midnight and a cockerel,..... well maybe not the cockerel........,  enough to say it is very different process.

The whole assembly is inserted into the block with a tool that looks like it would be more at home poking the fire, Mr H Ford always  did things his way.

And here's a flat head Ford valve and spring pack I keep it to remind myself why I don't have any V8 Fords whenever I feel like straying to the dark side, 

That's it for this section next up will be crankshaft, pistons and rings but I'm still sourcing parts so that may be a little while yet, but hey ! there's always plenty of rust to chop out of the cab while I wait.

Pete

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 13, 2022 by Pete Ashby

[john1950]

This has turned into a restoration tutorial. Meticulous work with explanation's about the tools. 

[Pete Ashby]

On 5/28/2022 at 2:14 PM, john1950 said:

This has turned into a restoration tutorial. Meticulous work with explanation's about the tools. 

If it encourages just one person to have a go then I think it's worth the band width.  Without the help and encouragement that I have  received over the years I wouldn't be able to tackle these sorts of jobs. 

With regard to the tooling it would be disingenuous to suggest that everything can be done with an adjustable spanner and a claw hammer. 

But a basic tool kit including a set of combination ring and open end spanners, various screw drivers,  set of sockets,  a few basic measuring instruments and a little know how and application will get you a long way along the road to a successful engine or gearbox rebuild.

Pete

[Pete Ashby]

What better way to spend a wet and misty day in the wild west than chopping out rust, the saga of the drip rails is now finished  so a few photos to show the progress 

In the last update on this work I showed the right hand side rail at the rear of the door aperture cut out and the replacement fabricated section ready to  go in.

Here's the completed job on the right hand side

 

Next up was the left hand side not requiring quite so much work but what needed replacing was a bit tricky to fabricate and weld in place

This is the front of the left hand door aperture rail and a small section of the front roof removed

 

These are the two replacement sections folded up ready for welding 

And here's the finished job there will need to be a bit more work after the media blasting.

Pete

 

Edited June 9, 2022 by Pete Ashby

[67burwood]

Tidy little repair 👍

[Pete Ashby]

15 hours ago, 67burwood said:

Tidy little repair 👍

Thanks, just this small repair took all one afternoon, cutting out the rusted parts, prepping the remaining metal for welding, producing a card board template and adjusting it to fit the contours of the roof section and drip rail, cutting and shaping the steel, welding it all in place then grinding and sanding back.   That's where the time goes on restoration projects . 

It's perfectly possible to put a top coat on an entire vehicle in the same time frame with dramatic transformational results where an afternoon spent fiddling about with this repair will be completely invisible in the scheme of things but at least I'll know it's not full of filler. 

Pete

[Pete Ashby]

Back to the engine as parts slowly start arriving from various sources from UK, Europe, US and Canada, it's a slow process and the freight costs these days are crippling even though the parts themselves are reasonably priced.

Anyway enough moaning what's be occurring ? Cork gasket making that's the topic for this post.

In a previous post on overhauling the gearbox I did a bit on how to cut paper gaskets so I thought I'd complete the theme by looking at cork ones too. 

Cork gaskets are used where there's a lot of oil sloshing around,  so sump gaskets and valve chest gaskets are often made from cork but they crop up in all sorts of other applications as well .   

Trying to use 80 year old cork gaskets frankly is at best a lottery and more often than not a complete waste of time and money so I don't, I make my  own. 

This is how I do it, there are other ways so again if you've done this a few times I'd skip this section or just look at the photos..

Here I'm using 6mm cork sheet various thicknesses can be obtained from gasket material suppliers find them on the web. 

Take one sump

 

Collect the tools for the job, all self explanatory with the perhaps the exception of the wad punches (next to the hammer) these come in sets from about a 1/16" up to about 1" diameter for not a lot of money. You use the appropriate sized punch to make the holes for the bolts  they can be used on card and paper as well a bit more about  how to use them in a minute.

Here I've cut a piece off the sheet over size in both length and width I'll explain why in minute.  I've marked three   holes with the sharpie pen and punched them out with the Wad punch and a hammer. I'm using a couple of sump bolts and some nuts just done up finger tight to hold everything in place this will now act a datum point and the other holes can now be marked out.

To make the holes,   

place the cork on a piece of  soft wood ( don't knock through onto a hard surface you'll ruin the punch, place the wood on a solid surface,   I'm using a small anvil. but a bench, or floor is just as good.

With one strike knock the punch through. You don't need to knock it into next week,  however don't just keep tapping at it as it will go of center and make a ragged hole.

 

Fit all the bolts and make sure everything lines up use the Sharpie to mark out the edges then remove the cork blank and it looks like this. The reason for having spare material up to this point is two fold.

Firstly it lets you move things around a bit as you line up and mark out the holes. Secondly  the spare material supports the gasket shape during punching and cutting out and prevents creep and /or distortion of the finished gasket.

Now trim up the outer and inner edges I'm using straight cut metal shears here which cut thick cork really well as well as scissors and a craft knife along with some 120 grit paper to smooth off the edges and profiles.

 

Cork tends to grip a craft knife blade some force is required so always cut away from yourself and keep your fingers behind the blade......... stating the bleeding obvious here Pete........

Quite so !! 

 

Anyway after raiding the the workshop first aid box  it ends up looking like this, I've marked on the gaskets which way up they go fairly obvious on these but not always the case and this saves time and angst later.

 

And here they are in place and I've cut the front and back seals as well. I've put the bolts in the wrong way round for now with a few nuts finger tight to keep the gaskets flat and out of harms way until everything is ready for fitting.

 

Pete

 

 

 

 

Edited July 2, 2022 by Pete Ashby
removed spare photo

[Trooper 3/9 RAAC]

Hi Pete, great work & I’m loving the detail & explanations put into your posts. 
I’ll  be interested to know if your going to use a sealant & what type on the oil pan gaskets. They give me no end of grief on my Bedford sump. My next try will be Permatex #3 Aviation Sealant. 
Good luck with the restoration.

cheers

Pierre

[Pete Ashby]

5 hours ago, Trooper 3/9 RAAC said:

I’ll  be interested to know if your going to use a sealant & what type on the oil pan gaskets. They give me no end of grief on my Bedford sump. My next try will be Permatex #3 Aviation Sealant. 
Good luck with the restoration.

cheers

Pierre

Hello Pierre, I'm pleased you are enjoying the Blog content.

As for sealants it's a very wide ranging subject these days that's worthy of a blog all of it's own. 

The short answer is I regard the choice of sealant similar to the choice of which tool to use ie the right one for the right job. Having said that there are times when a comprise has to be made in terms of whats available for example an emergency repair by the side of the road as a get you home fix,  for that I don't think you can beat a great big tube of RTV silicone the bigger the better.

For this job however I don't think silicone is the best choice for making a nice job on a cork gasket I would ague why use the cork just cut a card gasket and plug it up with RTV,  but there are other issues to do with clearance values that will prevent the use of a thinner gasket of course .

The Permatex No3 Aviation is a good one as it is applied with a small paint brush so you can get a decent covering on all surfaces it's non hardening and resits virtually everything..

In the mists of time here in the UK choice was limited to either a form of shellac basically a varnish or good old Red Hematite which I have to say I still find has it's uses.

Blue Hylomar is a form of non hardening polyester urethane sealant  good to 500'c Ok for oils fuels and water.  It's very good with card and paper gaskets but like all tube sealants can be a bit messy to apply uniformly,  none the less it's my go to sealant of choice. 

Just a point about your Bedford sump I suspect  it's not dissimilar to the GM Chev 216 sumps that I'm familiar with and the sealing surface is not particularly generous.

  If the pan fixing  bolts have been over tightened in the past it raises the profile around the holes in the pan and makes getting a decent seal difficult if they are not dressed back flat with a body hammer and dolly before fitting. 

The other weak spot on all sumps is the front and back seals these need to be kept long by about 1/4" each side so they compress and seal around the front and rear main caps properly when the pan is fully tightened down,  a bead of RTV on these may not go amiss as a belt and braces exercise.

Pete

  

Edited July 3, 2022 by Pete Ashby

[Trooper 3/9 RAAC]

Thank you Pete for your reply.

Yes sealants certainly can be large discussion topic with everyone having a different view & experience. 

I'm aware of the bolt hole distortion & have paid close attention to these. With regard to the end seals, I'm not sure the cork end gaskets supplied are long enough to keep them a 1/4" longer on each side, (1/2" overall?) but I'll check that out.

The main flange gaskets have a tang on the ends which tucks into the grooves of the front & rear bearing caps & it's these corners that can be tricky with half round end gaskets locking down on top of them.  

Pete, Do you have a view on these points:-

1. Some mechanics recommend to soak cork gaskets in water before fitting as they can dry out if stored for sometime?

2. Apply sealant to  both sides of the cork sump gaskets or just the pan side so removal is a lot easier?

Sorry to hijack your thread, but your experience appreciated.

cheers

Pierre

[Pete Ashby]

3 hours ago, Trooper 3/9 RAAC said:

Thank you Pete for your reply.

Pete, Do you have a view on these points:-

1. Some mechanics recommend to soak cork gaskets in water before fitting as they can dry out if stored for sometime?

2. Apply sealant to  both sides of the cork sump gaskets or just the pan side so removal is a lot easier?

Sorry to hijack your thread, but your experience appreciated.

cheers

Pierre

Firstly Pierre you most certainly are not hijacking the blog.

It's exactly what  I would like to achieve,   hopefully stimulating discussion and dissemination of ideas and techniques relevant to our vehicles. 

  I would very much encourage others to join the discussion and to add their own relevant  ideas and knowledge.    I am continually at pains to point  my professional background is not in motor engineering but I have been lucky to have known and worked with a few who were trained in the discipline.  Also I've been restoring both for my self and other people a reasonable cross section of WW2 vehicles for the last 50 years.  This doesn't make me an authority on the subject by any means there is always something new to learn with MV's.

So after all that guff to address your points above from my own perspective:

1. Some mechanics recommend to soak cork gaskets in water before fitting as they can dry out if stored for sometime?

Yes they do and some will do it in boiling water too.

The idea behind this is that the cork dries out, shrinks and becomes brittle over time, the water softens and expands the cork to a degree.

 I've never had much success with this particularity with complicated shapes where a number of bolt holes need to line up correctly.   It's the major reason that drove me to start making my own gaskets.  That and it's a lot cheaper frankly than tracking down and buying something that has had a dubious storage life for the past 75 to 80 years and is structurally modified by time even if it has been stored correctly. 

2. Apply sealant to  both sides of the cork sump gaskets or just the pan side so removal is a lot easier?

This begs the question if you only apply the sealant to one side which side do you seal ? The block face is the machined surface so should in theory provide the best surface for the cork to seal on,  mostly true but not always is how I would answer that. 

I seal both sides just to be sure and that's why I use something like Blue Hylomar (see previous comments above) Back in the day everything got a good dollop of Red Hermatite and required a hammer and chisel to free the part on disassembly.  I have heard of people greasing one mating surface when using Hermatite but it always seemed a bit counter intuitive to me. 

It's not good practice to reuse a gasket it's a consumable at the end of the day.   Here the issue is to use something that gives you a fighting chance of removing the part in the future.   Today there are reasonable choices in the market for non hardening sealants and if you make your own gasket after the initial cost of buying the cork sheet it's just your time (that one I made took about 20mins) to knock up a new one that is fresh and fits properly where it should.

Pete

 

Edited July 4, 2022 by Pete Ashby
missing word

[Trooper 3/9 RAAC]

OK, thanks Pete, your points are all noted, I'll keep watching your thread with great interest

all the best

Pierre

[john1950]

Just me pence worth. When I have had problems with thin sumps before, I have used a piece of thin flat strap drilled to fit the sump holes to trap sump and gasket just that little bit tighter without distorting the sump. It is usually easier to do corners separately.  Cork gaskets always shrink so joints have to be checked for tightness after a short while. If the cork is moist it will not break as easily when it is being handled but it will dry out in use as it is exposed to engine heat. Use just a thin film of your favourite jointing compound on the lower side.

[Trooper 3/9 RAAC]

More useful sump gasket info john1950 

Pierre

[Pete Ashby]

3 hours ago, john1950 said:

Just me pence worth. When I have had problems with thin sumps before, I have used a piece of thin flat strap drilled to fit the sump holes to trap sump and gasket just that little bit tighter without distorting the sump. It is usually easier to do corners separately.  

Interesting,  never come across this before.  Am I right in thinking that the strip acts like a long washer spreading the force applied by the bolts more evenly along the sump flange ? 

Pete