Dodge Brakes

[Tony B]

Having brought my two out of winter hibernation, leacking wheel cylinder on Ruby the WC51. Not that bad I've had her near fifteen years with no problems. Just ordered a new set of cylinders and flexis from Jeeparts (The Dodge Gods will forgive me) Speaking to Amanda, she told me that as the Dodges have step cylinders and in consultation with Girling ONLY Dot 4 fluid recommended.

[Pete Ashby]

Speaking to Amanda, she told me that as the Dodges have step cylinders and in consultation with Girling ONLY Dot 4 fluid recommended.

 

Interesting Tony, I wonder what the reasoning was ? I'm not clear what the difference the stepped cylinder makes.

 

My understanding of the difference between DoT 3 and 4 is the wet and dry boiling points 4 being higher than 3 you would have to have the hammer down pretty hard to boil DoT 3 even at the worst end of the wet point curve with a Dodge, unless you rode the brakes down hill for 3 miles.

 

Still better safe than sorry I suppose, but it does beg the question about what fluid to use in trucks larger than a Dodge which is comparatively not as large as some of the kit guys own on this forum.

 

Pete

[Tony B]

To be clearer, the DOT 5 total synthtic is what Girling are advising not to be used in Step cylinders. Though there has been the general view that DOT 5 is unsutable for older break systems for a long time. Rather like 20/50 oil, DOT 4 is the improved version of DOT 3 suitable for sytems originally designed for DOT 3. But DOT 5 is like a synthtic 5/40 oil, just not compatable. I have always used DOT 4 on my Dodges and Land Rover Series with never a problem, so if manufactuer Girling recommend that for the system, I'll use it. Back to the old adage a Bugger if it don't go, a Disaster if it won't stop!

 

Same with rebuilding, I'm not happy to do so as I don't have the confidence in my ability to do it properly, so I have bought new.

[tankdriver]

Believe me DOT 5 is not the answer to everything, and not a answer at all sometimes.

 

I am a tech trainer for Yale, and Toyota forklifts, and have been a forklift tech for them since 78. Yale came out with a new model lift right after DOT 5 came out. They mounted the brake assy on the top of vertically mounted dual drive motors horizontally. These were used in and out of coolers, in and out of the cold. Kind of like a truck kept in a unheated garage. The brake assy started going bad in less than a year, and ALL of them in the same way. We opened them up and found a ring of pitting around the cylinder housing.

 

What we found out is that condensation was collecting in the brake cylinders, and since DOT 5 does not absorb the water, it was floating on the top of the brake fluid, making a ring of rust and pitting. Their answer was to make the cylinders out of Stainless steel. We replaced about 50 cylinders (2 per truck) just in the Memphis TN area.

 

And I know that some people will never have any problems, I'm just letting you know about a large scale problem that happened, and cost a major company a TON of money.

[gas 44]

Having brought my two out of winter hibernation, leacking wheel cylinder on Ruby the WC51. Not that bad I've had her near fifteen years with no problems. Just ordered a new set of cylinders and flexis from Jeeparts (The Dodge Gods will forgive me) Speaking to Amanda, she told me that as the Dodges have step cylinders and in consultation with Girling ONLY Dot 4 fluid recommended.

 

 

Thats where your problem starts Tony.......Jeep parts do CHEAP parts for jeeps, I have NEVER had anyting of quality from them.............they dont really seem to understand Dodges either...... I replaced the whole brake system on our dodge last year with parts from another supplier near Newbury with NO problems at all.

Edited May 22, 2016 by gas 44

[Tony B]

I have had parts from Jeeparts on Katy's brakes for some years now, never a problem. Though I know the other supplier, they never seem available, and the cost a morgatge.

[Degsy]

Oh well Tony I hope you've got a big anchor and a strong rope, think about one of your regularly quoted homily's.

Cheap brake parts and safety don't sit well together.

[gas 44]

I have had parts from Jeeparts on Katy's brakes for some years now, never a problem. Though I know the other supplier, they never seem available, and the cost a morgatge.

 

I'm not sure about that Tony, I have rung at all sorts of time and not only were they pleased to take an order they spent a lot of time on the phone with technical advise (to me thats priceless)

Re their costs, on the whole the fact that the prices they quote are including VAT I've not found a huge difference from other suppliers and I cant think that I have had anything thats not top notch. Each to thier own.

[Tony B]

That appears to be problem. I'l stick to the DOT 4 .

[Tony B]

Oh well Tony I hope you've got a big anchor and a strong rope, think about one of your regularly quoted homily's.

Cheap brake parts and safety don't sit well together.

I agree mate homily is well put. But in defence of Jeparts, I was closley questioned on what I wanted to do and well advised. Jeeparts do take brakes very seriously. The parts they supplied me for Katy the ambulance were all of good quality and have worked well for some years now.

[Richard Farrant]

A tip IF you are replacing ALL brake components during a restoration is to use Synthetic Brake Fluid, this does not attract moisture from the atmosphere like normal stuff and suits vehicles that spend a lot of time standing. Last year I pulled a classic car from a garage that had stood unused for eight years, normally the brakes would be sticking or leaking yet with synthetic fluid used 12 years before the brakes were absolutely perfect. In fact despite me not touching them before its mot each wheels readings on the brake roller were virtually identical to its neighbour. My local classic garage uses synthetic on virtually ALL its total restorations and has never heard of any that have gone on to have wheel cylinders leak or stick.

 

To clarify the types of brake fluids, there are three types, Mineral (specified by certain car manufacturers, eg. Citroen, etc), Synthetic (the standard type of brake fluid) ... and Silicone.

If you go by the DOT number you cannot go wrong, up to and including DOT4 is a synthetic man made product (but not containing Silicone).

There is a misunderstanding between synthetic and silicone. Look at containers of DOT4 and they often carry the word 'synthetic', because that is what it has always been, but NOT silicone. Years gone by its major ingredient was vegetable based. Refer by the DOT numbers and you cannot go wrong.

 

DOT5.1 is a silicone based fluid, but not fully silicone. I would only use it where specified by the manufacturer

DOT5 is fully silicone

Edited May 22, 2016 by Richard Farrant

[Tony B]

Thanks for the usual clear consise clarification Richard.

 

To add a bit, a slight detraction form the Dodge design is the site of the master cylinder. Right under where the steering coloum comes down to the front. I'm thinking of putting a remote resovoir on. The blank pice to seal the mastr is a standard BSP thread, I got one from a plumbers supply place to fit the pressure bleeder. I'm thinking that if I get another blank, drill then braze a tube on I can fit a motorcycle type resovoir to the pipe and secure it to the bulkhead. Just to make life easier. Though the manual says when the system is bled, allow one more pump of the brakes to get an ullage space in the top of the master. Would a resovoir still give this ullage?

Edited May 22, 2016 by Tony B

[N.O.S.]

The new reservoir simply becomes the space within the master cylinder used as a reservoir. You only need some space in the top of the new reservoir, same as with the master cylinder, so no problem.

 

Have done this with very remote and inaccessible reservoirs in brake master cylinders on wheel loaders.

 

I seem to recall H Wade was recently told by Past Parts that certain replacement brake cylinder seals are only suitable for dot4 (or was it dot5?) :blush: This could well be due to the type of material which has had to be used to replicate these seals.

[Tony B]

Someone on the 'other' Dodge place has been kind enough to post pictures of their set up. So that's the way to go! Easier to attach pressure bleeder if nothing else. When I did Katy's brakes a while back I bemoaned the fact I didn't have the right return spring pliers, someone here had a spare set and I got them. So now I get a chance to try them out! :yay:

[Gordon_M]

There's an "other" Dodge place Tony? do tell me where?

 

There were civilian and military remote reservoir kits. The civilian one was glass, so you could see how much was in it, but the military one was steel so it wouldn't get broken. Each led to a solid replacement cap for the standard cylinder.

 

Brake spring pliers? I thought everyone had an original set - they aren't expensive.

[Tony B]

Well I didn't have a set of spring pliers. I'm thinking a metal resovoir of the type used on early Land Rovers would'nt look out of place, but of course to return to original, just replace filler plug. One thing I have found is to take your time and set the shoes by the manual afterwards, then no problem stopping.

[Grasshopper]

We used a CVRT reservoir to extend from the master cylinder (beneath the cab floor) on our M55. We mounted it high up between the drivers seat and door. An added advantage is we can instantly tell if there is a leak (therefore brake problem) without lifting the floor trap and master cylinder cover.

[Tony B]

Been looking about, there are plenty of motorcycle resovoirs available complete with fixings, so I'll go with one of them.