longydagun Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 Hi guys just been looking on the surviving panzers website and had a good look about, really informative website which has got loads of good pics etc. However my question is don't you think that alot of ww2 era tanks used as memorials are wasted? There seems (at least to eye) to be tanks in relative good condition! I would rather see a stone memorial or the like used and have the tanks restored to running condition rather than have them rust away sat there! Whats everyone else s views on this? Many thanks Al Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulob1 Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 I suppose the ideal scenario is that we save everything that was ever made...practical considerations taken into account memorials serve a purpose just as much as running vehicles. However some people would have all military items melted down and turned into farm tools, so I doubt there is a common view..except within the military collectors world. However a tank memeorial may give rise to some thought by the people who have no interest in it....and forget just what happened and is still happening around the world to free people from tyranny....and in some cases to try and put people back into it... Finally I personally think all military vehicles should be given to me and I will look after them for ever..full stop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddy8men Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 i have no doubt that most memorials will be restored eventually. as their value increases and their condition deteriorates it makes sense to get them under cover and replace them with something more suited to the riggors of the weather. you just have to be patient rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pzkpfw-e Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 Doubtless cost is one of the major concerns, plus what to replace them with? Will we see fibreglass Shermans, to go along with the fibreglass Spitfires & Hurricanes, that are now used to replace the gateguardians that have now passed into the restoration "machine"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skiprat Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 I think we should look at by who and when / why these memorials were set in place. Chances are it was by people a lot closer to events than we ever will be. Should we not respect the thoughts and reasons of these people? I would be happy to see a tank return to the earth it came from, if it is Contemporary with its surroundings. Even a pile of rust can tell a story. The other option is a lucky (rich) few get to have a new play thing or worse get to make money out of these “memorials”. There has been much said in the press about metal theft from war memorials. Ok its not brass/bronze from a cenotaph, but it could be financial gain from what someone wanted to be left as a lasting memorial. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddy8men Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 i reckon restoring a tank is a good way of honouring the men that fought in them and that once a tank has been restored it could well last for 100's of years. better to place a statue than leave a tank to rot but i'm a tank lover so you'll have to make your own mind up. rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timbo Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 Provided they are looked after i think they should be left as memorials to those who gave their lives in defence of freedom. I would rather see that than see them disappear into the private collections of wealthy collectors never to be seen again (notwithstanding that there are some very good private collectors who do their best to make sure their vehicles are seen and the history understood). I guarantee the Vimoutiers tiger would be seen by a lot less people if it is ever moved (though it could do with a spruce up!).. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longydagun Posted July 28, 2012 Author Share Posted July 28, 2012 Interesting replies guys, Just to clarify i wasn't saying we should just remove the tanks and remove the memorial i was just going on the lines of the tanks being removed and being replaced with for example a stone memorial or the like. The Tiger at Vimoutiers is unlikely to be saved due to the damage it has to the turret and other sections of the tank but there are some other tanks that seem in good enough condition to be recovered and restored. For example the Panther in Breda in Holland that was i believe restored cosmetically by Kevin Wheatcroft in exchange for Gearbox and engine? There seems to be some rare pieces placed on Plinths that could be restored to running condition which i would rather see instead of them rusting away sitting there Cheers Al Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pzkpfw-e Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 (edited) The Vimoutier's Tiger is in better nick, than what KW's got to construct his Tigers from (Unless he's found something that's passed by the eyes of the enthusiast!) Edited July 28, 2012 by Pzkpfw-e Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RattlesnakeBob Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 Regards the damage to the Vimoutiers Tiger 1 ... ....As I understand she was undamaged at the end of the war having been simply abandoned probably for lack of fuel in the German retreat to the Seine ..?? ..from what I remember most of the damage was done when a scrap dealer started to lamp her up in the early/mid 70s but thankfully this was stopped by the townsfolk of Vimoutier who wanted her saved as a memorial.... but...I do believe she is missing her gearbox and substantial amounts of equipment inside her is also missing????.....quite how or why the gearbox was removed between when she was originally abandoned and when she was dragged back up the bank and placed on her plinth is anyone's guess.........I would have thought removing the gearbox from a Tiger to be quite a heavy duty job requiring some heavy tackle yet no one around in the town during those intervening years seemed to know when or how or by who it had been taken......... PS: One year on a motorcycle tour of France I took a detour to get some up to date photos of her...I have a few somewhere of my lady leaning on the old tank with an expression that says something like "tour France" he said...."you'll enjoy it" he said... he definately didn't mention going miles out of our way to look at old rusty tanks.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajmac Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 (edited) There are armour memorials all over NW Europe, on my tour around Bastogne I was tripping over Tank parts at the side of the road! When a vehicle was put on a plinth close to where it was knocked out and as such has context to it's surroundings I would never suggest removing it so long as the local authorities are prepared to finance it's up keep. Post war many memorials were placed using machines that are not appropriate for what they intend to commemorate.... Post war Sherman M4A1E8 and a British Sherman M4A4 close to the US beaches in Normandy. In stark contrast the knocked out M4A3 in the centre of Bastogne was winched out of a field just outside the town after the war and placed as a memorial - irreplaceable. Edited July 28, 2012 by ajmac Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcspool Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 (edited) There are armour memorials all over NW Europe, on my tour around Bastogne I was tripping over Tank parts at the side of the road! When a vehicle was put on a plinth close to where it was knocked out and as such has context to it's surroundings I would never suggest removing it so long as the local authorities are prepared to finance it's up keep. Post war many memorials were placed using machines that are not appropriate for what they intend to commemorate.... Post war Sherman M4A1E8 and a British Sherman M4A4 close to the US beaches in Normandy. In stark contrast the knocked out M4A3 in the centre of Bastogne was winched out of a field just outside the town after the war and placed as a memorial - irreplaceable. Alistair, as much as I love the sight and sound of a running tank, I could not agree more. Just last week I went to see a Stuart in France in the same place where it was knocked out in the closing stages of WW2 - see http://the.shadock.free.fr/Tanks_in_France/stuart_moulinet/index.html. PRICELESS isn't it!?! Anyone claiming this could better be restored to commemorate WW2 is talking b&!!&ck$.. Taking a tank like this out of it's context means turning it from a historic artefact into a piece of scrap. Edited August 6, 2012 by mcspool fixed link Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RattlesnakeBob Posted July 29, 2012 Share Posted July 29, 2012 I couldn't agree more...... ......The Vimoutier Tiger for example should stay as she is ..... .....even if (IMHO) she is relatively (going on what some lads on here have done :angel:) easily 'restorable'....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolly Jeeper Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 Here's a picture of the Vimoutiers Tiger (from a Normandy trip a good number of years ago) - I remember seeing the cut up the rear of the tureet where the scrapmen had started... It's on the cover of an old copy of After the Battle too (a shot of it before it was dragged out of the hedge and onto the plinth) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pzkpfw-e Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 I'm not sure if the turret has been cut, or cracked when the demo charges were ignited. AJ's comment is highly pertinent, also, putting these vehicles into a museum sterilises them and (as those of us who frequent comcentral's AFV news forum, http://www.com-central.net/index.php?name=Forums&file=viewforum&f=73, I commented that the museum-pieces do look "over-restored" at times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 Anyone claiming this could better be restored to commemorate WW2 is talking b&!!&ck$.. Taking a tank like this out of it's context means turning it from a historic artefact into a piece of scrap. But this what it will end up as, as scrap if left out in the elements. Not a major issue now but will be in 50-100 years time? What is the long term plan for such memorials? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RattlesnakeBob Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 But this what it will end up as, as scrap if left out in the elements. Not a major issue now but will be in 50-100 years time? What is the long term plan for such memorials? a worrying possibility for the future I guess Jack......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enigma Posted August 6, 2012 Share Posted August 6, 2012 But this what it will end up as, as scrap if left out in the elements. Not a major issue now but will be in 50-100 years time? What is the long term plan for such memorials? Indeed. I'd like to see some of the memorials restored. However they serve a purpose as memorials. Still leaving them to rot doesn't sound very sensible. Remembering is GOOD but just leaving them to desintegrate doesn't sound respectful to me. If used as a memorial then take care of them... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattie Posted August 6, 2012 Share Posted August 6, 2012 They could do this to protect the vehicle, probably not that expensive either (Ashford Kent) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pzkpfw-e Posted August 6, 2012 Share Posted August 6, 2012 There have been rumours that the Vimoutier's Tiger will get some TLC and a cover of some sort. The remains have suffered over the years, not just from attention of prospective scrpamen. Mind you, there's also been rumours that it will be sold to a collector! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcspool Posted August 6, 2012 Share Posted August 6, 2012 (edited) But this what it will end up as, as scrap if left out in the elements. Not a major issue now but will be in 50-100 years time? What is the long term plan for such memorials? In this particular case, the Stuart has been left out in the open since 1945, uncared for until recently, and it still sports its original paint and markings! Not only that, it also is the only tank I have ever seen with of what I believe are remnants of shipping / waterproofing compound :wow: And 50-100 years from now this Stuart will have all but rusted into the ground, still serving as a memorial to what happened at that spot in the closing stages of the war. Also, in 2062 those lovingly restored Stuarts will also be rusty hulks in a field somewhere, for lack of spares, money, fuel or just plain care from the descendants of the guys who busted their knuckles on restoring them. You don't think that will happen? It happens today - see the attached pics of a Chevrolet CMP C15A offered for sale on HMVF and MLU, pictured in 1990 (left) and today (right). I guess what I am trying to say is that some historic artefacts are better off left as they are, rather than being in the hands of guys willing to "slap on a coat of paint" .... will duck and take cover now! Edited August 6, 2012 by mcspool Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcspool Posted August 6, 2012 Share Posted August 6, 2012 What would you rather like to see? A Sherman sitting next to the road where it was pushed off after running over a mine in 1944? Or painted up on a plinth in the nearby village (Beffe, Belgium)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horrocks Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 The Vimoutiers Tiger is in dreadful condition. It is simply an empty hulk. The torsion bars have collapsed or gone, and it is sitting on its belly on the concrete plinth. The interior is gone, just so much rust, full of coke cans, used 'feminine items' and general rubbish. The exterior is poor, with rusting mild steel plates welded over the engine covers, likewise the hatches, and it has an old and awful paint scheme. All the exterior fittings that still survived in the 1970s have long since been stolen or removed. It really is depressing, and it barely serves any commemorative purpose in its current state - indeed, it belittles what actually happened here. It needed to be retrieved, the deterioration arrested, and to be placed in some form of dry shelter years ago. Some of the Panthers in the Ardennes are apparently in retrievable condition, with intact engines and running gear, and could be restored to one degree or another before they rot away. The Breda Panther was rescued in this way, with the price being that the motor was put to use elsewhere. Surely this is preferable to the total loss of the vehicle. I guess it is all a matter of cost, and some kind of tradeoff is better than nothing at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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