robin craig Posted April 8, 2012 Share Posted April 8, 2012 Looking at the serial number tag on the side of my engine the other day, the light bulb came on as to just how many engines were made. My serial number is in the 9000 range, so that gives a rough ratio of just over 2 engines for every vehicle produced. What are other peoples engine numbers? Does anyone have a higher number than this one? Regards Robin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toolman Posted April 8, 2012 Share Posted April 8, 2012 Mine is 19319 Clive is the man for this query :-) All I need to say is Humber and he will be summoned :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Farrant Posted April 8, 2012 Share Posted April 8, 2012 According to a certain book, there were 14,487 military B60 units built. Engine numbers would appear to run through all Marks, and if the civilian versions were included, then many more could be added to that figure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fv1609 Posted April 8, 2012 Share Posted April 8, 2012 Humbers had engines mostly in the range 3513-9359. There were some used in the sequence 13602-13628. Then of course there the ones in Commers & the RAF used a batch of the Mk 5G. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Farrant Posted April 8, 2012 Share Posted April 8, 2012 Humbers had engines mostly in the range 3513-9359. There were some used in the sequence 13602-13628. Then of course there the ones in Commers & the RAF used a batch of the Mk 5G. Clive, you then have to factor in all those extra engines that were procured as replacements, these would be circulating between stores depots to vehicles, back to stores then to overhaul workshops and to stores again. I do not think a lot of owners realise how many engine changes went on in the lives of military vehicles, especially armour. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptMax Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 Old thread I know. But mine is #17129 CaptMax Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peakrec Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 Wanted B60 for a Humber 1 Ton, runner or one that is not seized please. Pm me any info, many thanks Peakrec. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
datadawg Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 I do not think a lot of owners realise how many engine changes went on in the lives of military vehicles, especially armour. What would make armor a special target for engine changes? Is it that armor had a lot of engine failures? So if I am a "purist", I should never expect a "numbers matching" Saracen or Fox? In case that doesn't make sense, here in US, car collectors want numbers to match for a classic vehicle, so they know engine, transmission, etc. are all original. I presume this is not viable for armor? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robin craig Posted July 11, 2015 Author Share Posted July 11, 2015 Dear Datadawg, there is an amount of thrashing and general mechanical abuse that military vehicles in general get, the bigger and heavier the more of a consequence that has. That is why I would suggest armour is more prone to it, but I am sure others will chime in. Robin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teletech Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 What would make armor a special target for engine changes? Is it that armor had a lot of engine failures? So if I am a "purist", I should never expect a "numbers matching" Saracen or Fox? In case that doesn't make sense, here in US, car collectors want numbers to match for a classic vehicle, so they know engine, transmission, etc. are all original. I presume this is not viable for armor? I don't know about the Saracen but the Fox is extremely unlikely to have it's original engine. Armored vehicles are very heavy and tend to have low power to weight ratios so it is common for them to be up near the top of their operating range. Add to this the fact that it's really hard to pull air through an armored louver set compared to a normal radiator so cooling is a serious problem and you have almost the perfect way to go through a lot of motors. The usual way was to yank out whatever motor was in there and drop in a reconditioned one so if there was ever a failure that motor is someplace else now. Imagine taping a few vent grills over the front of your car, filling the seats and trunk until the tires bulge, and then drove it in the yellow range of your tachometer all the time and you get a feeling for the life these motors live. I gather 500 hours was the average life of a Jag motor in a CVR(T), if you think of military driving as hurry-up-and-wait so perhaps a third at idle, a third mid-range, and a third at speed... 25mph * 500 hours = motor change every 12500 miles! Of course, that's a pretty good amount of miles for armor so perhaps some still have original motors? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirhc Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 Reconditioned engines would be fitted at base overhaul, and it would be rare for a vehicle not to have been through at least one of these, check the data plate. You have to also remember it's often quicker to swap an engine than try and fix it in situ. An engine swap on a CVRT is only going to take one or two hours, so they wouldn't mess about with trying to fix an issue when they can do a quick change and let someone else deal with it! The paperwork for my sturgeon shows it had a new engine when the temperature sender went wrong. I have paperwork for a J60 which did 125 miles from rebuild before being removed for a head gasket issue. Any CVRT, Fox or similar may have had 20 or more engines over its life. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
datadawg Posted July 25, 2015 Share Posted July 25, 2015 The paperwork for my sturgeon shows it had a new engine when the temperature sender went wrong. I have paperwork for a J60 which did 125 miles from rebuild before being removed for a head gasket issue. Any CVRT, Fox or similar may have had 20 or more engines over its life. Chris Chris, Where did you manage to get paperwork and is there a source of records for other vehicles? If a given Fox had over a dozen engines, would that mean that every time engine got replaced, the removed engine was repaired by someone with expertise or just some random guy? What I'm getting at is if a given engine had 20 repairs, odds are there are tons of little screw ups still ongoing, unless the repairs were made by an expert each and every time. Just seems the odds of having a lemon for an engine now are extremely high. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
attleej Posted July 26, 2015 Share Posted July 26, 2015 Dear All, Most engines Army engines are rebuilt by static base workshops or civilian original equipment manufacturers. Power packs for Chieftain, Challenger, Warrior, 432 & Bulldog are regenerated by the field workshop. The actual engine or gear-box is replaced and sent back to base. The capacity to regenerate the power packs is a limiting factor on how far you can move an armoured formation on tracks before running out of packs. On exercise or operations time is of the essence. It is much easier just to change the engine than to mess around rebuilding the engine in the field. You also need to remember that the field workshop units have to be mobile within the Area of Operations (AO). The last thing they want is dozens of vehicles in bits all needing one or two elusive parts. Each one would have to be moved to the next location (with the risk of losing components) by the recovery section which has a finite capacity. Richard would know more about how the Base workshops operate but I believe that different ones did different engines. This would mean that they had all the Special Tools and Test Equipment for the engine as well as their stores having all the parts that they might need for that engine. For instance, if something had to be shimmed the relevant base workshop's stores would have all the range of shims in stock. The same considerations apply to gear-boxes and axles and final drives. Collectively, they are known as Engine & Main Assemblies. The bottom line is that it would be very unusual to find an AFV with its original engine unless it was never issued to a unit. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowfat Posted July 26, 2015 Share Posted July 26, 2015 A friend of mine commissioned numerous engine dynos in COD donington in the 80s, said it was for J60s,, couldn't believe his eyes at how many were waiting test.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starfire Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 The pulled engines would rarely be duds, as stated, they could be, and were, removed for very minor issues that would normally be rectified in place on other vehicles, such as fuel pump, thermostat, carburetor or ignition issues. Hell, even to fix an oil leak. hat would then be sorted at a workshop and the engine would be sent out, in due time, to go into another vehicle... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott9643 Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Dear All, On exercise or operations time is of the essence. It is much easier just to change the engine than to mess around rebuilding the engine in the field. You also need to remember that the field workshop units have to be mobile within the Area of Operations (AO). The last thing they want is dozens of vehicles in bits all needing one or two elusive parts. Each one would have to be moved to the next location (with the risk of losing components) by the recovery section which has a finite capacity. Richard would know more about how the Base workshops operate but I believe that different ones did different engines. This would mean that they had all the Special Tools and Test Equipment for the engine as well as their stores having all the parts that they might need for that engine. For instance, if something had to be shimmed the relevant base workshop's stores would have all the range of shims in stock. The same considerations apply to gear-boxes and axles and final drives. Collectively, they are known as Engine & Main Assemblies. John Not forgetting that the point of an excersise is to test all the resources, and I've no doubt others will recall changing main Assemblies for no other reason than "excersising" the workshop in location. On at least one occasion we took trucks out of the workshop on tow because we couldn't get spares through the usual channels, but on excersise stores demands took priority and Assemblies you'd been waiting months for just turned up. You mention Field Workshops being mobile, and the last thing you want ................ Did we mention crash out, now if you want to lose some vital parts, that's the way to do it! Back to the main thread, I wholly agree with the experts here having bin there and dun that. The liklyhood of finding any military kit, leave alone armour with an original engine is extremely unlikely, as has already been said, major units often can't be repaired in the field as there is neither the special tools nor the expertise, or critically the time in particular to investigate and rectify faults. The user wants his vehicle back instantly, cos he doesn't want to stand guard at your location while you scratch your head, and the Tiffy doesn't want all his blokes committed to lengthy repairs knowing that he might have to move at any time. If in doubt, change the big bit or backload! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Farrant Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 The pulled engines would rarely be duds, .. Unless they were Jaguar J60 engines, then they were likely to be rooted ! Lost count of the number of them I changed, with massive holes in the block with thrown rods, or broken camshafts and timing gear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starfire Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Unless they were Jaguar J60 engines, then they were likely to be rooted ! Lost count of the number of them I changed, with massive holes in the block with thrown rods, or broken camshafts and timing gear. LOL, but we were talking about Rolls Royce B series Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Farrant Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 LOL, but we were talking about Rolls Royce B series Other AFV engines have been mentioned in this thread by several posters inc Fox . Regarding B Range engines, they can be prone to blowing head gaskets between certain pairs of cylinders and heads often found to be in need of facing before refitting due to bowing, so this would be one reason for changing a unit in the field as surface grinding facilities probably not available. Also they can suffer valve burning. When you change an engine, you generally only indent for one item, but if trying to repair an engine in the field, a number of items would be demanded, only wants one critical part to be n/a and the job stops dead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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