mcspool Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 (edited) Seeing Ivor's picture of a Lightweight in DBG in Land-Rover S2A Lightweight in service I remembered a picture of one of the Dutch Lightweight prototypes in DBG too. My question is whether Lightweights (or other Land Rovers for that matter) were delivered in DBG or in olive green? Were they delivered in DBG and overpainted in olive green in service when they were in need of a repaint? Or was this an early vs late feature ? Thanks in advance! Hanno Edited February 19, 2012 by mcspool edited link + added pic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robin craig Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 Many Land Rovers were delivered in DBG and then over painted at units. Eventually the specs from the MOD changed and they were delivered in a matt green. When this change over happened is fuzzy as far as I can tell. I think the mid to late 1970s would be the rough time of the change from my dim distant memory. I remember the S3 109 CL soft tops and the 88s that were the main stay of many a depot driving school fleet came in both DBG and matt green but most that I saw were matt green. Over to the other Land Rover rivet counters . . R Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxy Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 I don't know for certain just now change DBG/NATO Green, I would put my money abt. '78/'79 on VRM's GT or GX. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcspool Posted February 19, 2012 Author Share Posted February 19, 2012 Robin, thanks for the reply and Ruxy, sorry but I cannot follow the last bit you mentioned. Any Land Rover anoraks out there who can tell us more? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fv1609 Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 Hanno in answer to your original question about the paint finish for Lightweights. MVEE Design Spec No.574 issued 1st May 1972 gives the definitive answer, although it seems to have been written by a person who is gifted with dyslexia. It states that the colour is to be "Gloss Bronze Green BSC 244" Not very helpful as there are three "Bronze Greens" Light, Middle & Deep & there is no colour allocation for 244 A characteristic of someone with dyslexia when confronted with a two letters or numbers is that they often double the adjacent character instead. I think most people's observations would feel that the original colour of Lightweights was Deep Bronze Green which is 224 but the dyslexic author or typist doubled up on the wrong digit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcspool Posted February 20, 2012 Author Share Posted February 20, 2012 Clive, Thanks for the clarification! Let's hope it was dislexia and not disinterest or plain stupidness.... All I have ever seen are NATO olive Lightweights, or camouflaged ones, hence I was surprised to learn about them being DBG. Must admit this was more towards the end of their service life after they must have been repainted many times over. Or is there a possibility those ordered by foreign governments (Netherlands, Denmark) were delivered in the colour specified by those Armies? Thanks, Hanno Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minesweeper Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 In the late 1950's and early 60's, they were just in the plain green in the UK that they were delivered in. We just referred to it as "Land Rover Green". These were Series ones and early Series Twos. Not much help to you, I guess! Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivor Ramsden Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 From 1949 the only Bronze Green that Land-Rovers have been factory-painted in is Deep Bronze Green BS381:224. The vast majority of MoD Land-Rovers were supplied in DBG, but some were in Light Stone. I don't know exactly when they stopped supplying to the MoD in DBG but I'd go along with Ruxy and say that it was late 70s. Did they go to Olive Green before they went to NATO Green? This is all too modern for me - I've only just accepted that there are Series 3 Land Rovers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barrynevuk Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 I have a Land Rover 101, made in 1977. The origonal paint colour, under the layers and layers of NATO green/black is deep bronze green. I'm not sure when the contract for the truck was drawn up/signed, but that would have been when the delivery colour would have been decided. Hope this helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timbo Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 My s3 lightweight delivered in oct 72 has dbg as base layer on quite a few of the components in the window channels etc.. It is now green and black and will be staying that way.. I also have an ex afs series 1 which i hope (eventually) to do in dbg.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fv1609 Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 I don't know exactly when they stopped supplying to the MoD in DBG but I'd go along with Ruxy and say that it was late 70s. Did they go to Olive Green before they went to NATO Green? The earliest change I can find from High Gloss DBG to Matt IRR NATO Green is in the May 1980 publication of DGFVE Spec 341 for Rover 0.5 Tonne Series 3 which required two coats applied wet on wet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
volvoc303 Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 the lt/wts we had with reg 37fg37 were bronze green the fm reg still were up to fk, in 1978 we had to paint all are vehs irr paint mat green and black, painting was unscrew lens cotton waist in the holes grease glass and anything else you did not want paint on mix paint with petrol and spray also 5galls paint cans, take the top of and use sweepng brush we had no set pattern for how much black and how much green some were more green as we seem to get more green paint than black a lots of garrison vehs stay bronze green 41 sqn rct did till replaced Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivor Ramsden Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 The earliest change I can find from High Gloss DBG to Matt IRR NATO Green is in the May 1980 publication of DGFVE Spec 341 for Rover 0.5 Tonne Series 3 which required two coats applied wet on wet. Thanks, Clive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rover8FFR Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 I have a 1976 Commando Winterised FFR with DBG paint under all panels of squaddie paint and black/ green disruptive cammo........... I believed that mine entered service in 76 in Norther Ireland in 76 in DBG as a standard FFR before it went to Cdo Regt and was converted. Its Merlin report and B Card confirm this history. Hope that assist the debate / querey?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxy Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 (edited) There is no doubt whatsoever that this is what was used from 1970/71 (and earlier but I don't know how earlier). AFAIK - it was used up to the mid/late 1970's. ===================== When sanding a Land Rover 1979 , I soon cut through the top and revealed the grey/pink , that at first I thought was a primer , but as most of us know indicates the IRR pigments (the green comes to the surface of the coat). I made furter enquiries and was advised that it was IRR and the colour must be NATO Green. Edited February 20, 2012 by ruxy speling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rover8FFR Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Tony I have rubbed through my cammo and got pink......and then through to grey beyond the DBG. I guess that the pink is IRR rub back and grey original Land Rover primer??????????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxy Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Steel parts would probably be grey , I have a new L'wt bulkhead that I have had for donkeys & it is grey. Damaged bulkheads - I have noticed had a grey primer. However I have vent panels that are grey & others red oxide , these would be for spares orders. On the duralumin , the process was a wet paint that was stoved , there was no primer . The prep was in fact Alodine (airframe type finish) , more often than not this turns the natural alloy to a gold finish or sometimes a yellowish / green (Alodine - not to be confused with Anodised). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rover8FFR Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Steel parts would probably be grey , I have a new L'wt bulkhead that I have had for donkeys & it is grey. Damaged bulkheads - I have noticed had a grey primer. However I have vent panels that are grey & others red oxide , these would be for spares orders. On the duralumin , the process was a wet paint that was stoved , there was no primer . The prep was in fact Alodine (airframe type finish) , more often than not this turns the natural alloy to a gold finish or sometimes a yellowish / green (Alodine - not to be confused with Anodised). OMG how does Jo Soap deal with that?????????????? A gold ish finish would suggest anodised even if different etc... I think the debate here is to assume untreated and treat for the future??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Farrant Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 On the duralumin , the process was a wet paint that was stoved , there was no primer . The prep was in fact Alodine (airframe type finish) , more often than not this turns the natural alloy to a gold finish or sometimes a yellowish / green (Alodine - not to be confused with Anodised). If you mean the metal used on body panels, I think you will find it is Birmabright, which is not the same make up as dural. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rover8FFR Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 If you mean the metal used on body panels, I think you will find it is Birmabright, which is not the same make up as dural. OOops Birmabright and a difference to anodised finish will confuse us all............BUT on a restoration of a part who would notice??????????????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxy Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 (edited) If you mean the metal used on body panels, I think you will find it is Birmabright, which is not the same make up as dural. ---------- Sorry but you are incorrect there :- The use of the word Birmabright is often wrongly used - even in Land Rover literature. There were several grades (if not dozens) of Birmabright manufactured , at a chemical & physical test level, these are regarded as duralumin. Birmabright was just a trade name for the Birmingham Aluminium Company "BIRMETALS" . http://www.cartechnical.co.uk/b/394-birmabright.html Generally speaking , you will be hard pushed to find a pure aluminium sheet as most are well alloyed - commercial available grade nearest is "Half-Hard" (if you Google search on the quoted as above - Today a similar material is known as NS4 or 5251 alloy).. -------------------- ps. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birmabright Edited February 21, 2012 by ruxy speling error / ps Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Farrant Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 ---------- Sorry but you are incorrect there :- The use of the word Birmabright is often wrongly used - even in Land Rover literature. There were several grades (if not dozens) of Birmabright manufactured , at a chemical & physical test level, these are regarded as duralumin. Birmabright was just a trade name for the Birmingham Aluminium Company "BIRMETALS" . So .... you are saying that Land Rover are wrong in naming the body material as Birmabright in their technical literature? Well what about this then, the specification of materials used in the construction of body panels for the Rover 0.5 tonne Series 3, was "Birmabright" aluminium alloy as laid down in DGFVE Spec 341 I have been involved with Land Rovers in the past for many years and have never heard or read of body panels being made of duralamin. as for quoting Wiki and similar websites, we all know they are largely unsubstantiated, with no traceability of facts or sources. Whereas the above quoted specification is from an official document. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxy Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Duralamin was just a trade name (German) - like Birmabright (British) , for re-smelters who would take pure aluminium and blends it with such as copper, the aluminium-magnesium alloys, the aluminium-manganese alloys, aluminium-silicon-copper alloys. Duralamin in various similar spelling non trade-name being used to make a general description of alloyed aluminium If you search on the internet , you will find a list of "Birmabright" alloys listed to the BS Specs. This company would produce to specification , covered by a BS LM or more probably N code (aluminium-magnesium alloy) (in fact sheet & strip would have a NS or NP code) is would also be given a Birmabright code. If Land-Rover tech. writers wish to label all these alloys as just Birmabright - then that was their problem (I know better). All this "Birmabright" in the Land Rover "Repair Operation Manuals" , is a over simplification of materials technology for the benefit of giving farmers etc. some information on the repair and welding of body panels. I suppose the writers know that if they gave the full truth , the people reading it would be confused further as they would not have the ability to absorb all the correct info. required, and in fact it would require yet another volume. You must know that you can't put 4 years of C&G welding course on a couple of sheets in a book ? Possibly from your past trade you take all UK military publications as gospel , I don't. -------- Only recently I questioned a stated fact in both Rover 1 driver's handbooks dated Aug 68 + Aug 69 and parts book dated 1976 refer to the dynamo as being a C40T. Now the User handbook is a Rover publication 605498 but is Army Code 22178 . The spares book is the "restricted" one by the Ministry of Defence so is in fact not a de-facto Land Rover publication (they possibly had input). Now I was aware that a Lucas dynamo with a suffix T was one with a tacho drive on the rear bearing housing. I don't believe that this is correct , sometimes one tablet of stone is cribbed from a previous tablet of stone. I doubt that a T genny was ever fitted by Solihull or the REME , but I am probably wrong on that issue too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivor Ramsden Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Only recently I questioned a stated fact in both Rover 1 driver's handbooks dated Aug 68 + Aug 69 and parts book dated 1976 refer to the dynamo as being a C40T.Now the User handbook is a Rover publication 605498 but is Army Code 22178 . The spares book is the "restricted" one by the Ministry of Defence so is in fact not a de-facto Land Rover publication (they possibly had input). Now I was aware that a Lucas dynamo with a suffix T was one with a tacho drive on the rear bearing housing. I don't believe that this is correct , sometimes one tablet of stone is cribbed from a previous tablet of stone. I doubt that a T genny was ever fitted by Solihull or the REME , but I am probably wrong on that issue too. Aha, Britpart meets Fulltilt, eh? It's strange why they got the dynamo spec so wrong in the Rover 1 publications, it's not as if there would have been any likelihood of a rev counter being fitted, is it?. I wonder if tacho-drive Lucas dynamos were fitted to any other MVs around that time, and that's what caused the confusion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landrover nick Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 hi all attached photo is rover mk 2 1951 in deep bonze green regards nicky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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