wearing medals...my arse!

[Guest shane taylor]

I am sorry but I don't quite get this non wearing of medals situation.

 

On a moral/ethical high ground how can people condemn reenactors who wear "medals" for show but don't condemn people who dress up for films...aka Band of Brothers - how does that work????????

 

Double standards or a great augment?

[Mark]

If they did obtain the medals through service or they were not awarded them, then they do not deserve to wear them, that's one thing I have always stuck by and believed in, the same as wearing insignia of rank.

[Guest matt]

I'm with Mark on this,any award or rank is earned by an individual,if someone who did not earn an award or rank wears the medal/insignia in my eyes it shows disrespect for those who have served.

 

There was a case recently where some ATC Commanding Officer put himself forward for the MBE,he was later stripped of the award and,if I remember correctly,jailed.

 

Matt.

[Chappers]

Well this is an interesting post,I help run a little group of reenactors http://www.501para.net and we do wear Campaign Medal ribbons on our Class A jackets and we do wear Rank on both combat and Class A uniforms as earned through effort put into the group.I can't seem that this is anyway disrespectful to the unit or persons we portray.If you take away the insignia and campaign ribbons,you might as well through the reenacting out the window and just turn up in a plain green jacket and trousers.

 

Should we ban the wearing of all military uniforms,unless you have served in the forces?,then should we ban military vehicles for the same reason,when you drive around a jeep marked up as British airborne are you portraying the unit or just driving a military vehicle around!!!

 

 

I can't seem that it's doing any harm wearing insignia as long as you are not wearing it as if you have earned them.

 

One other point on this matter is the wearing of your fathers/Grandfathers Medals as demonstrated on remembrance Sunday this year by that little chap in all the papers,No disrespect to him but he didn't earn the right to wear them if that's what were talking about, I was so moved seeing him march the way he did.

 

Just my opinion.

 

Regards

 

Steve

 

[Jack]

Good subject and another one that completely confuses me :cry:

 

At this point I am with Steve on this as I cannot see the problem here but I am willing to hear the moral augment. I know there is an unwritten law, a code of conduct but why?

 

How can wearing medals be morally wrong when you are wearing a uniform that you didn't earn, badging your truck up in unit markings that you or your vehicle didn't belong to, carrying a weapon of war that you don't know how to use??

 

............the list can go on.

[ian001]

I don't see why people would want to wear medals they haven't earned, I can see for re-enactment purposes the need for ranks but apart from that I don't see the need, it's just my opinion.

 

It all comes down to personal preference, we'll all have to agree to disagree, you can't make someone else have your opinion, this is another topic that will go on & on.

 

Cheers

Ian

[Mark]

 

How can wearing medals be morally wrong when you are wearing a uniform that you didn't earn, badging your truck up in unit markings that you or your vehicle didn't belong to, carrying a weapon of war that you don't know how to use??

 

............the list can go on.

 

 

Uniforms are given out at the click of your fingers or willy nilly, but medals have to be earn't by the person, uniforms are ten-a-penny but medals are not, vehicles we buy for the enjoyment of our hobby and are marked accordingly, and as for carrying a weapon of war I assume you mean a gun, weel that is given to you as a neccessity to "defend" or to fight with, with medals you have to earn them and apart from campaign ones, they are'nt easy to get.

[Chappers]

I'm in total agreement with you guy's when it comes to service medals or awards for acts of bravery, but since we aim to represent the typical soldier of WWII you would expect to see certain unit citation and campaign awards that were typically worn by that specific unit.

 

You have to remember that we are portraying a serving WWII soldier rather than pretending to be that soldier, and as such certain awards are paying respect the unit itself - as such we don't wear any 'valour' awards.

 

As someone has already said what we do is no different to actors in a film, though admittedly with a smaller budget

[Jack]

Nope, still not getting an understanding here as to why it is a no no to wearing medals? :?

[Marmite!!]

Ever wondered why Prince Charles has got so many medals when he last saw active service 30 years ago? here's the answer..

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/6147544.stm

[Snapper]

I think there is a world of difference between re-enactors wearing non individual gallantry medals for the strict sense of a portrayal from the scumbags who pretend to have won medals for bravery or service. By the way, you are right about the ATC bloke, he sent fake letters and recommended himself for the MBE. Piece of poo. There was a news item a few years back about a relatively high ranked naval type swanning about in a green beret he hadn't earned. I like to see people wearing their family's medals on the opposite side of their jackets out of respect. But as the only things I've ever earned are a NVQ level 3 in 1999 and the regional finals of the Wavy Line Stores junior artist competition in 1970, I won't be making much of a splah myself. I've still got the Spyrograph they gave me, though!

[John Pearson]

Sorry Jack: Can't understand your lack of understanding of the problem?

There are identifying marks and honours. Vehicles and uniforms have markings so you can identify who/what where etc. This includes unit markings, WD numbers, Arm of service markings, Regiment markings and to an extend, badges of rank. To not have them is unrealistic and to have them is no sign of disrespect: if someone complains about them then they probably object to re-enactment fundamentally anyway. What is common to all of these is that they are just issued, everything or everyone in the same situation will have identical markings.

Medals are completely different. The vast majority of combatants did NOT have them, they were earned by an individual, often with acts of bravery or self sacrifice that we cannot even dream of. To wear them without earning them is the most distasteful action I can imagine.

An example:

One VC was awarded to an RAF navigator. His Wellington bomber was hit by flak and an engine set on fire. The pilot did everything he could but the fire continued to burn. The navigator discarded his parachute and took the canvas enginine cover and cut his way out through the fuselage. Cutting hand holes in the wing as he went, he crawled out onto the wing (at 200 mph) and smothered the fire with the canvas. He then retraced his steps back into the fuselage. No parachute? He had to leave it off because the drag would have pulled him off the wing.

Does ANYONE think that an RAF re-enactor should wear a fake Victoria Cross because he has seen a photo of someone wearing one in 1942? If not, then why wear any medal: the point is the same, no matter what the level of award.

Some medals (including Victoria and George Crosses, DSO, DSC etc etc) can be worn by widows and/or eldest children at appropriate gatherings. They are worn on the right side of the chest to indicate the wearer is wearing them for someone else and is not entitled to wear them themselves.

I am entitled to wear my late fathers medals (on the rhs) but would never dream of doing so: he earned them, not me. If called upon to parade them, I would carry them on a board in my hand.

 

[Dougiebarder]

Jack- I agree with the last poster, medal's should only be worn by those who earn then. I've never served, but from reading the relevant post's on ARRSE, most ex and serving soldiers seem to feel the same way as well. I've got the feeling from a few of your post's, that although you like dressing up, and driving around in your green truck, you haven't done much research into the psychology and phraseology of the average solider (British or American). A trawl through a few of the army websites (ARRSE being a prime example) gives a good idea of how real soldiers feel about issues such as these. I really think anyone in our hobby should try to get into the head's or real soldiers, before doing anything that might "annoy" the men and women we owe so much.

[Chappers]

Right then lets establish what we mean by medals, are we discussing the wearing of ribbons with the medal attached or the wearing of just the ribbons. Then is it bravery awards which I've never seen a re-enactor wearing and would condone such an act..

I feel there is two different issues here one being trying to represent accurately a unit in history and the other someone who goes around pretending to be something he/she's not for the purpose of self gratification.

I can only say from my point of view, I can't see anything wrong with wearing the uniform with the campaign ribbon,unit citations and Rank of a unit from 60 years ago.

Every WWII vet I've ever met has said how smart the guy's look in their uniforms,never commenting on Rank or Campaign Ribbons only that they bring back great memories of their past.

 

How do the forum members feel about wearing uniforms from other periods in time?,How about medieval banquets were people dress up like kings and queens wearing a crown etc ,How about re-enactor policemen,nurse's etc ,from all periods in time,they are often seen wearing rank badges or awards. Should there be a time limit as to when you can accurately portray a unit or individual or period in time?

 

To sum up my feelings ,I think it's O.K wearing a Uniform rank or any other item as long as it's only for reenacting purpose's,the main part being ACTING not Pretending to be.

 

regards

 

Steve

[Jack]

I hear what you are saying gents and yes, Dougie, I am as much read as the next person – thank you.

 

But on a morality point of view is ok then to watch/stage a battle scene where people are depicting the death and severe destruction of our forefathers ( and maybe our brothers – depending on which war you are reenacting) but it isn’t ok to wear a medal?

 

[ian001]

Can I just ask if the majority of people opposing the wearing of medals are ex service? also are the majority of peaple wearing the medals not ex service? I'm against wearing them & I'm ex service.

 

Cheers

Ian

[Chappers]

Can I just ask if the majority of people opposing the wearing of medals are ex service? also are the majority of peaple wearing the medals not ex service? I'm against wearing them & I'm ex service.

 

Cheers

Ian

 

 

Hi Ian,

I'm none ex service, and from my previous post you know my answer to your question. Can you just Clarify what you mean by wearing medals.

 

Are we talking this:http://www.forces.gc.ca/hr/cfpn/images/10_05/10_05_cfpn_1111_wearing-medals_ef.gif[/img]

 

or this :http://www.faaa.co.uk/images/Honor%20Guard/Twinwwod%20Vets%202.jpg[/img]

[Tugger]

I'm not ex service but I don't think it's right to wear gallantry medals or rank insignia unless earned, however the exeption to the rule would be re-enacting, if an accurate portrayal of battle scenarios is required then there would have to be some rank identification as there would have been at the time (obviously not medals on the field), as Chappers has said...as films do. If someone is depicting a particular person from history it would then be also important to get all their regalia correct, as getting it wrong would be equally as insulting, like Patton for example in 'Back to the Bocage', how wrong would it be for Art Pope not to be dressed correctly.

 

Basically what I'm saying is it's 'off' to wander round with medals falsely implying they are your own, which is quite clearly not what a re-enactor would be wearing them for.

[ian001]

Chappers, it's the medals themselves, the robbons don't bother me so much, it's seeing medals hanging on peoples chests that I object to, most of those you see wearing them are often the younger group/club members who don't really know what that are wearing but think it looks good, it is up to us (the older generations) to educate them & try to get them to understand, I never knew my uncle, he died in Germany in 1945 aged 25, I have his medals but would never think of wearing them, they were his, like I said earlier I don't see the need to wear medals, ranks & ribbons are acceptable for re-enactmen purposes but apart from that there is no point to it, I also said that this is just my opinion, it is each to his own.

 

Cheers

Ian

[Guest matt]

Hi Ian,

 

I'm not ex service and I'm opposed to the wearing of medals. To be honest(and I know this will upset a few) I'm uneasy with the whole aspect of anyone wearing a uniform to which they are not entitled.

 

Over the years I've worked with a number of ex servicemen and I've asked them their views of several things like reenactment and battlefield archaeology and the vast majority consider such things with a degree of disdain.

 

Matt.

[Chappers]

I find the points put forward by all are very interesting. From my point of view running a re enactors group,I can't see any problems depicting a Unit from 60 or so years ago. I would however be very uncomfortable knowing the fact someone was pretending to be Ex service when they were not. My fathers has his service medals and a marksman's medal he won when in the R.A.O.C . I would never wear them on either side of a coat as I feel they are personal to him and him alone.

 

Matt's point about any uniform, would that include as far back as the Knights in Armour or say the American Civil War??? having been to several battles over the years I'm just curious as to if it's felt that maybe it's acceptable after a certain period of time to wear a uniform for re enacting!!!!

 

I find this an interesting subject to discuss, I feel that to some degree by us reenacting it involves what we do as a group of re enactors and the comments are always looked at constructively to see if we can improve what we do....

 

 

Regards

 

Steve.

 

 

 

[John Pearson]

But on a morality point of view is ok then to watch/stage a battle scene where people are depicting the death and severe destruction of our forefathers ( and maybe our brothers – depending on which war you are reenacting) but it isn’t ok to wear a medal?

 

 

If someone is acting as General Patton then I for one would not object to him wearing the appropriate ribbons, ivory handled revolvers etc BUT for rank and file re-enactors to wear unearned medals is at the very least distasteful. To be honest, if a poll were taken of the general public varying responses would be expected to 'do you find it distasteful to see.....' type of question. I would suggest that such a survey would give results something like: (most distasteful first)

 

Wearing unearned medal ribbons

Re-enacting current conflicts

Wearing SS/Hitler youth Uniforms

Re-enacting very recent conflicts

Wearing Axis uniforms

WW2 battle re-enactment

Wearing Allied unforms

Allied WW2 uniforms as part of display of relevant vehicles or filming

Any period prior to 1900 re-enactment

'Cowboys and Indians'

Any period prior to guns re-enactment

Military vehicles without re-enactment

 

Jack, you imply but do NOT state that re-enactment is indivisible from medal wearing but to be honest, if I were forced to chose between re-enactment with medals or banning re-enactment then I would vote for a ban for everything rather than see medals on the chest of someone who never earned them.

As an aside, I am not ex service but have fregular contact due to my MV hobby and voluntary work at Bovington.

 

[Jack]

Cheers John.

 

I think it may well be wise if we do have a poll on here basically with headings that you have outlined.

 

Like all debates it will those for and those against. Like most of us, I have spent most of my life in the company of veterans of one form or another, indeed I was in the company of one until about 03:00 yesterday morning. Only three weeks ago I spent the morning interviewing and recording the memories of a Lieutenant who had a very interesting time during and after WW2. I also have here my Grandfathers medal which I saved from the bin when I was a kid as he had thrown them away as he had no interest in the war as he was so bitter that Hitler had taken him away from his family and tried kill him for 5 years.

 

As a rule I like to get to the bottom of peoples thoughts and motives and then I tend to get a profound understanding of the argument. That is why I say “what is the problem?”

 

No one can really answer the question or is that we have always said that so we will keep saying it – does that make sense??

 

[richardrosser]

As an ex-service man (without any combat experience) i have NO issues with re-en actors wearing uniforms or badges of rank from any point in history.

 

Medals such as the VC and MC etc should i think only be worn if its yours but as said in another post on hear

 

If someone is acting as General Patton then I for one would not object to him wearing the appropriate ribbons, ivory handled revolvers etc

 

WALTS are my issue......

 

Now other medals such as given out (like candy) by the US of A then whats the issue if its in the name of re-enacting, the Germans for example gave medals for the Norway campain and if a "living group" are re-creating a group of solders in 1944 ~ 45 then some would have such medals.

 

These groups keep history alive (shame our education system doesn't) and if people find it offencive then they can walk away from the display. others will find it educational if only after the event when they use the internet to find out about what they saw that day.

 

 

 

[Marmite!!]

How many reenactors actually wear medals? I personally haven't seen many..

 

I've just had a look on the WW2 Reenacting Forum & the general opinion on there is that they do not wear medals, it does seem like it's the German reenactors who are the biggest offenders..

 

Here's a couple of quotes from a German reenactor..

 

Note on wearing British medals......

 

It is easy to get Axis reenactors to wear Third Reich awards, but try to get Allied group members to wear British awards, they refuse to do so. Why should that be any different from wearing Third Reich medals? Any "Brits" over 25 years old could be wearing at least one award by 1944, and anyone over forty years old would be wearing First World War ribbons.

 

On my DCLI uniform I wear the Long Service/Good Conduct ribbon and the Campaign Service Medal ribbon.

 

Cheers, Bill

So there we have it, rules for some and rules for others

 

 

If you reenact British... thou shall not wear ribbons of any kind.

 

If you reenact German, wear anything you like, no one will be offended.

 

Well, that is that one sorted :wink:

 

Cheers, Bill