Eager Beaver taxation class

[Giles]

Could people tell me the following please:-

 

What road classification for the purposes of taxation are people's Eager Beavers.

 

If newer than 01.01.1973 is your's classed as:

a) a forklift - costing how much?

b) a tractor - costing nothing?

c) a special vehicle - costing £?

d) p.l.g. - costing ?

e) something else costing?

[Sean N]

Giles, taxation class generally goes by use, not necessarily what the vehicle is. You need to be aware of this, as certain taxation classes restrict what you can do with the vehicle. For example, an agricultural tractor can only be used on the road for purposes relating to agriculture, horticulture or forestry; a works truck can only be used between premises, or for loading lorries on the road, in the immediate vicinity [of its base].

 

If you're using it for general purpose use, going to shows etc. PLG may be the most appropriate class.

[Tony B]

Surley 'Plant' would be appropriate? Very useful class.

[Giles]

Thank you for those points, guys.

 

I am finding some interesting history about this machine and if I am really lucky, it may become historical. Would this mean that I cannot use it for any other use except shows? I am hoping that historical would not limit it's uses.

[Sean N]

Tony, I don't think there is a 'plant' taxation class any more, I think it's just Special Vehicles (not to be confused with Special Types Vehicles). At least I can't find plant in DVLA's list of taxation classes.

 

Giles, for taxation as Historic Vehicle it just has to be built before 1.1.73. The only restriction is that it should not be used commercially (though the relevant leaflet, INF34, doesn't actually say this); i.e., you can't use it to earn money. Anything else (legal!) goes.

[Giles]

I think you are correct on the special vehicles class now. I do not know if that is the same cost as PLG. It is begining to look as though the machine was in fact built in 1970. I just have to wait and see if MVT concure with my findings.

 

Seems a shame not to be able to use it to earn it's living or at least to cover it's costs though:nut:. Would not want to jepodise thr free taxation classification if I can get it though.

 

It will not be a chargable job though when I build this piece of kit on it. Getting the main sections of steel today. It will take several months to get anywhere - trial & error.

[N.O.S.]

Giles - when I tried to tax an April 1960 large winch truck as Special Vehicle (for off-road winching work) - current rate £165 - at my local DVLA office around 2002, I was advised that I could take advantage of the Historic Road Tax.

 

I was advised verbally that Historic Taxation would cover both work (non-load carrying, moving to / from job) and private (rallying etc).

 

This suggests that any pre 1973 plant and equipment can benefit from Historic taxation class. I'm sure your local DVLA office will be able to advise, although there still appears to be an element of concern about the consistency of advice (which is not surprising given the very unusual situations we in our hobby find ourselves in!).

 

I think the view is that if dual use the higher of the RFT rates should be paid - this would cover you for second use.

 

If a similar but post 1973 vehicle is used it would require tax of £165 if Special Vehicles or £165 if Private HGV, so again cost is same so usage should be acceptable to the Authorities - so long as other conditions are met....

 

Two points arise when using a vehicle for different purposes, which need considering carefully:

 

• A post 1960 / pre 1973 vehicle used as 'Special Types' e.g. forklift, winch truck, etc, does not require an MOT if it is being used to move around in the course of its work. However if it is being used for private non-commercial work - e.g. taking to a rally or just out for a spin for fun - it may need a MOT or at least comply with certain C&U requirements.
  

 

 

• The Inland Revenue have been dipping fuel tanks of vintage tractors at rallies - they say white diesel must be used if tractors is used for 'private' purposes e.g. atending a rally. This would presumably apply to any historic vehicle or special vehicle used for private purpose.
  

So if your Beaver is to be used for work i.e. moving to or from a place of work then you should have no difficulty getting the DVLA to confirm you can use it with red diesel and taxed Historic - try your local office?. If you want to take it down the pub, or to a rally, you may need to get answers to more questions

[Giles]

Wow - that is deep. Thank you. It seems a very gray area. Depends on the individual's mood that one picks at the local DVLA office by the sound of it. If they are sympathatic or knowledgeable towards the historic side or not.

 

I am presuming that at shows and rallies, machines that are dipped and found to be running on red - that will be fine if you tell the Ministry it arrived on trailer. Unless they are sitting there waiting for one to arrive at the start.

[N.O.S.]

..I am presuming that at shows and rallies, machines that are dipped and found to be running on red - that will be fine if you tell the Ministry it arrived on trailer. Unless they are sitting there waiting for one to arrive at the start.

 

They were dipping them as they arrived by road :cool2:

[utt61]

I am presuming that at shows and rallies, machines that are dipped and found to be running on red - that will be fine if you tell the Ministry it arrived on trailer. Unless they are sitting there waiting for one to arrive at the start.

 

And you may have problems if the vehicle is road registered and taxed and running off-road on red, unless it is also one of the (very few) vehicles which can legally run on red on the road. It is, I understand, now an offence to use red at any time in a vehicle which is fully road legal but requires taxed fuel on the road.

 

FWIW I had the same experience with DVLA with my Iron Fairy mobile crane; when I bought it it was taxed as "Special Vehicle" at £165 pa, but I was advised to tax it as "Historic Vehicle". It is not capable of carrying a load on the road, and therefore even in commercial use it would still be eligible. It is, incidentally, "Engineering Plant" not a "Mobile Crane" under C&U.

 

Since it is road registered and taxed (and MOT exempt) I have been advised that I cannot run on red at all, even though it hardly ever ventures out on the public highway (a top speed in the region of 12mph is something of a deterrent). I do, however, need to travel about 800 yards on the road between two areas of the site where I keep it. If however I were to SORN it, then I could run on red off-road, but obviously cannot then take it on the highway. All very confusing!

[Sean N]

...I was advised verbally that Historic Taxation would cover both work (non-load carrying, moving to / from job) and private (rallying etc)...This suggests that any pre 1973 plant and equipment can benefit from Historic taxation class...there still appears to be an element of concern about the consistency of advice...

 

There's no doubt that Special Vehicles can be taxed as historic; they're specifically referred to in the DVLA guiance, INF34. The DVLA information about Historic Vehicle taxation class only refers to private HGVs when discussing commercial (hire & reward) use. However, links to the information from other DVLA and DoT web pages say vehicles must not be used commercially. You pays your money and you takes your choice - or look up the original legislation...

 

...A post 1960 / pre 1973 vehicle used as 'Special Types' e.g. forklift, winch truck, etc, does not require an MOT if it is being used to move around in the course of its work. However if it is being used for private non-commercial work - e.g. taking to a rally or just out for a spin for fun - it may need a MOT or at least comply with certain C&U requirements.

 

I don't see this. MoT requirements apply to the type of vehicle, not the use. If the vehicle is exempt MoT it's exempt MoT, irrespective of use. The Schedule 16 exemptions make no mention of use, only design.

 

I am presuming that at shows and rallies, machines that are dipped and found to be running on red - that will be fine if you tell the Ministry it arrived on trailer. Unless they are sitting there waiting for one to arrive at the start.

 

As NOS later says, HMRC have been dipping tanks for some years now, typically on the road close to the entrances of shows. For more guidance on red diesel see Public Notice 75: http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/channelsPortalWebApp.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=pageExcise_ShowContent&id=HMCE_CL_000164&propertyType=document#P181_16924

 

Since it is road registered and taxed (and MOT exempt) I have been advised that I cannot run on red at all, even though it hardly ever ventures out on the public highway (a top speed in the region of 12mph is something of a deterrent). I do, however, need to travel about 800 yards on the road between two areas of the site where I keep it. If however I were to SORN it, then I could run on red off-road, but obviously cannot then take it on the highway. All very confusing!

 

PN 75, discussing vehicles which can use rebated fuel on the road, says of mobile cranes:

 

"A vehicle in this category must be designed and constructed as a mobile crane which:

(e) is used on public roads only as a crane in connection with work carried on at a site in the immediate vicinity or for the purpose of proceeding to and from the place where it is to be used

(f) when so proceeding does not carry any load except such as is necessary for its propulsion or the operation of built-in lifting apparatus, and

(g) has a revenue weight exceeding 3,500 kilograms."

 

 

This seems to imply you can use it on red, unless it sees any other road use...

 

[N.O.S.]

 

 

 

"Originally Posted by N.O.S.

...A post 1960 / pre 1973 vehicle used as 'Special Types' e.g. forklift, winch truck, etc, does not require an MOT if it is being used to move around in the course of its work. However if it is being used for private non-commercial work - e.g. taking to a rally or just out for a spin for fun - it may need a MOT or at least comply with certain C&U requirements."

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't see this. MoT requirements apply to the type of vehicle, not the use. If the vehicle is exempt MoT it's exempt MoT, irrespective of use. The Schedule 16 exemptions make no mention of use, only design.

 

 

 

I was trying to choose my words carefully, Sean :-D You may be right, but my example (which was a real life one until I sold the truck) shows how complicated it can become:

 

If my truck was used for winching work I could use red diesel and did not need to MOT it. But if I was using it for private use as a Historic Large Vehicle I would need to use white diesel and MOT it. This suggests it is the USE which alters things. Comes back to the concept of using a vehicle for two purposes - I guess the Authorities would regard the more stringent testing requirement to apply.

 

To further complicate matters, had my vehicle been taxed as Special Vehicle (i.e. winch vehicle) then I'm not sure I could legitimately have used it for recreational purposes - I never got round to resolving that one :cool2:.

 

Granted there are not many vehicles which could legitimately claim a dual use - the use is usually governed by the design and so MOT requirements / exemptions are straightforward to determine.

 

Unfortunately it always seems to be the range of vehicles falling under the category of 'large' and post 1960 / pre 1973 which seem to give us the headaches in deciding what legislation should apply. :nut:

 

I suppose we have a responsibility to try not to bend the rules. I don't claim to know the answers, I'm just trying to illustrate how difficult it is to get one's head around it all :saluting:

 

After all, if you can drive a Historic agricultural tractor around the roads for recreational purposes, surely you can drive a Historic forklift around too?

Edited August 4, 2011 by N.O.S.

[Giles]

I have seen the Ministry dipping in most unexpected places. Even in a motorway service station car-park when I was passing through to collect my EB. I don't blame them as the temptation must be great with these prices and it is their job.

 

I am quite happy to put in some white if I am going to drive to a show. But as it will not carry goods for hire or reward I am expecting to use it on red the rest of the time.

 

I am interested to see what the MVT suggests as those guys have loads more experience on this stuff.

 

(Anyone who drives an Iron fairy at or beyond 12mph will be very sea-sick anyway.:red:)

[utt61]

(Anyone who drives an Iron fairy at or beyond 12mph will be very sea-sick anyway.:red:)

 

Very true! At anything even approaching that speed it becomes rather too terrifying anyway. A twelve-ton vehicle with an exceptionally short wheelbase and rear-wheel steering with absolutely no 'feel' is not built for speed - even keeping it something resembling a straight line is difficult.

 

Sean N, thanks for the link to PN75; very interesting reading and helps a lot!

[Giles]

Just an update - taxed the Eager Beaver as Agricultural Vehicle as it fulfills all the criteria:cool2:. Not historic as it is 3 months too young:mad:

[Degsy]

Whilst the vehicle may meet the criteria unless you are a farmer or agricultural contractor you don't meet the criteria to use the crane on the road.

[Giles]

Fortunately I am an agricultural contractor and the Beaver is very helpful especially in off-road situations:-)

[Degsy]

Fortunately I am an agricultural contractor and the Beaver is very helpful especially in off-road situations:-)

 

 

Funnily enough I've often toyed with the idea of getting one for the same reason:D