432 road legal????

[landyandy]

More a case of bolts coming loose, to the point where the securing bolts shear.

 

on the gearbox connection side i presume ?

[antarmike]

I am not familiar but gearbox end seems to be external spline into internal spline on drive shaft. The bolts appear to be on the outboard end of the drive shafts. Can anyone confirm this?

[antarmike]

another possible cause of total brake failure would be breaking up of the brake drum itself.

 

Again I cannot say whether this was a serious problem in service, but certainly the manual emphasises the need for careful inspection for signs of cracking

Quote"

5.6 BRAKE DRUM INSPECTION

When renewing brake bands, or carrying out steering unit adjustments, the steering unit brake drums

must be inspected for signs of cracking, especially around the oil feed holes. Any sign of cracking

must be reported to the repair section SNCO."

 

Again, is the amateur mechanic aware of this and actively doing this check? As the 432's become older, presumably if this is a fatigue problem, it is an event that grows ever more likely.

[landyandy]

430mm x35mm thick vented disc with 4 pot caliper to provide braking only,next is to see if it will fit.also saying about bolts coming loose i think a shaft holding device to hold shaft in place will also need looking at

[arm carp]

Couple of questions

1 do you you mean you have been driving about on public roads ??

2 If so how do you justify in your own mind the legality of this ??

 

road registerd , taxed , insured , and driven by a driver with a full h licence , also being escorted , so im my mind there is no problame :-D

[antarmike]

road registerd , taxed , insured , and driven by a driver with a full h licence , also being escorted , so im my mind there is no problame :-D

Does the maximum C and U width of 2.55M apply to your vehicle,if not why not? and how wide is yours in reality?

Have you fitted a compliant secondary braking system?

Edited July 4, 2011 by antarmike

[landyandy]

Does the maximum C and U width of 2.55M apply to your vehicle, and how wide is yours in reality?

Have you fitted a compliant secondary braking system?

 

according to the specs if you take off exhaust and any other paraphnalier it is still 2.565 wide at the hull

Edited July 4, 2011 by landyandy

[antarmike]

Waste of time working on a solution for the brakes then! Whatever you do you can't make them legal. Having said that if people are going to continue to disregard the law, and brakes can be fairly easily be improved to bring them up to standard it is a better situation, but still far from ideal.

[landyandy]

the only way i can see to do it all legally is on the 434 as if you fit a winch it can be classed as a tracked recovery vehicle with should meet c&u compliance,but i stand to be corrected :cool2:

[Stormin]

the only way i can see to do it all legally is on the 434 as if you fit a winch it can be classed as a tracked recovery vehicle with should meet c&u compliance,but i stand to be corrected :cool2:

 

Why would you have to fit a winch on a 434? Surely the standard fitment crane is enough for it to be regarded as a recovery vehicle?

[antarmike]

Why would you have to fit a winch on a 434? Surely the standard fitment crane is enough for it to be regarded as a recovery vehicle?

According to C and U recovery vehicles have to be wheeled vehicles. There is no provision for a tracked recovery vehicle.

To be a recovery vehicle the crane or lifting device must be fitted to lift and carry some of the weight of the casualty as it travels. The side mounted position of the FV434 Hiab does not meet this requirement.

Edited July 4, 2011 by antarmike

[antarmike]

the only way i can see to do it all legally is on the 434 as if you fit a winch it can be classed as a tracked recovery vehicle with should meet c&u compliance,but i stand to be corrected :cool2:

 

There is no such category.

There is however Special types road recovery vehicle" these I understand have to be specially designed and constructed for the recovery of disabled road vehicles, or be permanently adapted for this purpose. They must be fitted with a crane , winch or other lifting system especially designed for recovering another vehicle. (FV432 isn't)

They cannot be used for any other purpose than recovery, or taking a broken down vehicle to a place of repair. They must be registered recovery and hold a Recovery VED. They must also be wheeled vehicles.

 

 

If you fit a winch you could argue it was STGO Engineering plant, but Engineering plant has restrictions

"Engineering plant" has as I understand it to be specially designed and constructed for the purpose of engineering operations which could not be carried out by a vehicle complying fully with C and U regs and goods vehicle type approval regs. Plenty of winch vehicles can do what Winch equipped FV432 can do and remain within C and U regs.

 

The vehicle must not be constructed to carry any load apart from that allowed. namely its own nescessary gear and equipment, nor can it carry any other goods or burden except materials that have been excavated by the plant or goods that it is designed to process on the plant.

[N.O.S.]

Oh - and they can only be used for recovery? :yawn: :yawn: :yawn:

[antarmike]

Oh - and they can only be used for recovery? :yawn: :yawn: :yawn:

 

They can only be on the road to travel to a casualty, travel on the road to remove a casualty to a place of safety, or return to base following such an operation.

[landyandy]

thankyou for the clarification on that mike, i will still look into the braking side of it if anyone is interested and will keep updates coming on progress, i can see this would hopefully making existing road registered 432,s at least half legal

[antarmike]

I am sorry but I am not going through all this again, re-read my post #4 where I go as deep as I can into why Fv432 cannot fit any STGO category. I think you will find all the suggestions just made are covered and ruled out in that post.

Edited July 5, 2011 by antarmike

[landyandy]

i will admit defeat on this one as i hadn,t read your post 4 so i can see no way legally forward on this subject at the present time or in the near future

[cosrec]

road registerd , taxed , insured , and driven by a driver with a full h licence , also being escorted , so im my mind there is no problame :-D

 

what more can i say you have just shot your self in the foot admiting to driving an over width vehicle with no justifiable reason and brakes that dont conform to Cand U

but its all ok because its road registerd , taxed , insured , and driven by a driver with a full h licence , also being escorted. Dont think it would take particularlly brainy lawyer to tear a hole in your defence if god forbid you happened to come a cropper

But ha ho you do what you want just dont try encouraging others to do same

[Firetrucker]

Has anybody got a link to 432 drive train plans as i may have a very simple conclusion to the braking issue.

a similar system was fitted to my kenworth Aerodyne STCO vehicle which worked brilliant/cheap/easy to fit and a proven system.

Believe me disc brakes are not feasable.

[julezee001]

another possible cause of total brake failure would be breaking up of the brake drum itself.

 

Again I cannot say whether this was a serious problem in service, but certainly the manual emphasises the need for careful inspection for signs of cracking

Quote"

5.6 BRAKE DRUM INSPECTION

When renewing brake bands, or carrying out steering unit adjustments, the steering unit brake drums

must be inspected for signs of cracking, especially around the oil feed holes. Any sign of cracking

must be reported to the repair section SNCO."

 

Again, is the amateur mechanic aware of this and actively doing this check? As the 432's become older, presumably if this is a fatigue problem, it is an event that grows ever more likely.

 

The Army were well aware of the problem with the brake drums. The issue was with overheating caused by excessive/incorrect use of the steering/brake tillers. The drums have a habit of cracking across the oil holes drilled in them. In service the drums had to be inspected after ever 500 miles of driving. This is neither a difficult, nor long task and is well worth carrying out if it hasn't been done recently on any out of service 432's, especially if they run on the roads.

 

Jules

[Big ray]

thankyou for the clarification on that mike, i will still look into the braking side of it if anyone is interested and will keep updates coming on progress, i can see this would hopefully making existing road registered 432,s at least half legal

 

Isnt that a bit like being half pregnant???????

[ArtistsRifles]

Problem - as I see it - is the lack of room in a 43x design to add another set of discs for the separate braking system.

Looking at the schematics Chris kindly posted (numbered 22) the thought occurs - do you have to have separate brake discs? Would it be possible to rig up a pair of slave cylinders that act on the the actuating linkages - preferably the ones closest to the steering box itself.

Run those back to a master cylinder with a brake pedal situated as convenient in front of the driver. Won't be an easy job but if that form of system works with VOSA it answers the question.

 

The OT has separate brakes for steering and stopping - both work on the same brake bands using a system similar to that described above and I was assured by VOSA this was compliant back in 2007.

(Mind you - this was the same organisation who "forgot" to mention the width issue so draw your own conclusions there....)

[landyandy]

Problem - as I see it - is the lack of room in a 43x design to add another set of discs for the separate braking system.

Looking at the schematics Chris kindly posted (numbered 22) the thought occurs - do you have to have separate brake discs? Would it be possible to rig up a pair of slave cylinders that act on the the actuating linkages - preferably the ones closest to the steering box itself.

Run those back to a master cylinder with a brake pedal situated as convenient in front of the driver. Won't be an easy job but if that form of system works with VOSA it answers the question.

 

The OT has separate brakes for steering and stopping - both work on the same brake bands using a system similar to that described above and I was assured by VOSA this was compliant back in 2007.

(Mind you - this was the same organisation who "forgot" to mention the width issue so draw your own conclusions there....)

 

nailed it in 1 ,its still all down to the width issue so making the braking safe is irrelevant

[antarmike]

Re modifications to braking.

 

Are the track drive sprockets relatively easy to unbolt. (by which I mean are the side plates with the teeth separate from the hub?)

 

If the inner of the two sprockets was copied as a laser cut profile in a hard material such as EN8 etc, omitting the row of lightening holes just inside the teeth, Would the flat face, created, just inside the teeth be wide enough to run brake pads against, using a modified disc brake calliper system?

 

This would give secondary Hydraulic disc brakes that would stop the vehicle in a straight line. These brakes would only be used in event of failure of the steering brakes. As I read the rules no back up secondary system is required for the steering, just for stopping.

 

The disc so created would not be vented so would get hot quickly, but what we want is a safe way of stopping the vehicle, and not much more.

 

Using the drive sprocket as disc brake would mean that externally the looks had been modified (but using th inner sprocket it wouldn't be too noticeable,) but it totally overcomes problems with internal drive shaft failure that, if it were to happen would mean neither inboards discs nor an electric retarder on the Pack/ steering box shaft would work.

 

May not work if there is final drive reduction between Steering Unit and Track drive sprockets, because torque required to effect stopping would thereby be increased.

Edited July 5, 2011 by antarmike

[minty]

Over the last six years I have owned two 432's the first one was inspected by the DVLA before they would register it, five of us also took our H license in it on the public highway and the Department of Transport also came out and inspected it before they would agree that we could take our tests in it.This vehicle has done over 1000 road miles without any problems.

It has also been driven to MENCAP charity events and Traffic Police have also been in it on the road.

I purchased the second one in February this year from Withams and registered it in April without it being inspected as they said they knew what type of vehicle it was and did not need to inspect it as they had already registered a number of these before, I had more trouble trying to register a RB44 but thats another story.