N.O.S. Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 Buggered to know what to do now tho! Adrian Perhaps with Jack's organisational skills we could club together and buy a small country? There might be one or two coming up for sale in the not-too-distant future :whistle: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 Perhaps with Jack's organisational skills we could club together and buy a small country? There might be one or two coming up for sale in the not-too-distant future :whistle: Could we afford Greece? that is pretty well up for sale at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferretfixer Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 (edited) Well, I think the bottom line here is. Because of the amount of these vehicles available at present. And because you cannot legally own one for usage on UK roads. The Majority of these may well end up in a scrapyard eventually as unsaleable for normal usage. Unless you had a museum, or large swathes of land to drive on. (Which the majority of us do not!) Or access to a Low Loader (Or the cash to be able to hire one regularly!) Then what would be the point in getting one to sit on your drive or in a large Shed? I think they will become a rarity in years to come as MOST (Not all) potential owners will go for something else that they CAN drive on a road. They will go the route of a LOT of other Ex military vehicles eventually. The Scrappies!.........Such a Shame. Edited July 2, 2011 by ferretfixer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulob1 Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 there is always one who will spoil it for everyone else...the 432 is perfectly safe on UK roads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormin Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 there is always one who will spoil it for everyone else...the 432 is perfectly safe on UK roads. Perhaps you should make you case to the Department of Transport and try and convinve them to make it legal then. I think most people on here would be more than happy to see such vehicles on the road rather than removed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 ...the 432 is perfectly safe on UK roads.Quite possibly, but that doesn't necessarily make it legal.On the flip side, there are plenty of vehicles legally on the uk roads which I don't believe are safe, like boy racer hot hatches with body kits and the like. The law is an ass! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormin Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 Be interesting to know what the postion is across the rest of Europe as to use of these and similar overwidth vehicles. I believe this whole issue arose from trying to bring our legislation in line with the rest of Europe, hence vehicles previously registered got through. I wonder whether it's the usual story of we are the only country rigidly enforcing the rules, were others are playing it more loosely. If values of 432s collapse in this country they may well hold in other places were use is permitted or enforcement is not taken seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue red blue Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 there is always one who will spoil it for everyone else...the 432 is perfectly safe on UK roads. and that one will be the prat that i know who drove a good few miles from a show to his compound with a track pin nut missing, if the pin had came out, game over Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
earlymb Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 Be interesting to know what the postion is across the rest of Europe as to use of these and similar overwidth vehicles. I believe this whole issue arose from trying to bring our legislation in line with the rest of Europe, hence vehicles previously registered got through.I wonder whether it's the usual story of we are the only country rigidly enforcing the rules, were others are playing it more loosely. If values of 432s collapse in this country they may well hold in other places were use is permitted or enforcement is not taken seriously. Here in Holland these laws are strictly observed, but there is an escape. 'Agricultural vehicles' are excempt from a lot of rules, like you don't need a real drivers license for them and they don't have to carry a registration plate. Because of this a lot of ex-military tracked vehicles are insured as 'agricultural vehicle' and can be used on the road. There are some limitations though, like a max speed of 20 kmh, and they aren't allowed on highways (I know, open goal....) and some more. An example. A halftrack can be normally road registered if the owner whishes to. However, due to its weight he wil need a truck drivers license and under recently revoked rules he would also have needed a yearly MOT (all vehicles made before 1-1-1960 are now permanently MOT-excempt) and road tax (all vehicles older than 25 vears on 31-12-2011 are or will become road tax free this year). It is also possible to just insure it as a agricultural vehicle and register it as such. For the registration check you just temporarily block all gears except the first and reverse so it won't exceed the 20 kmh ('construction')speedlimit. After registration you can just remove the block, and you have a fully road legal and insured vehicle you can drive with any class drivers license, as only minors have to take a special test. I don't see any trouble doing the same with a 432 or the like, since a lot of the real agricultural vehicles are a lot bigger and road legal. This procedure is popular with all sort of tracked MV's, such as Brencarriers and the like. Greetz David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulob1 Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 typical UK mumbo jumbo, LETS USE THE SAFETY ASPECT FIRST, THEN WHEN THAT FAILS LETS JUST STICK TO THE FACT ITS ILLEGAL. NO JUSTIFIABLE REASON WHY, THEY JUST ARE...our roads are too narrow, no they are not. I guess we have to have some reasonable size limit, I only Guess I am not sure we really do...but common sense says if the army have driven them on UK roads for 50 years...then is it realisitically right to make it now illegal...I dont think so. THEY ARE PERFECTLY SAFE ON UK ROADS. ON THE BACK OF A TRAILER THEY ARE MORE Of AN OBSTACLE THAN THEY ARE DRIVING ON THE ROAD UNDER THEIR OWN POWER... UK MUMBO JUMBO, personified by some rather nice people on here.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulob1 Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 we need a military vehicle/classic vehicle consideration within VOSA/DVLA If the vehicle is an ex military vehicle then there should be a specific category for it and it should be allowed to be driven on the roads, of course there has to be some proviso's for instance the chieftain can easily be driven on UK roads but would be a nightmare on some...so I think we can safely say that whilst the legal width of the 432 is close to the limit and over in some cases, this should be overlooked for most if the army regularly uses it on the roads. Perhaps we have to impose some speed or usage restrictions but there has to be a simpler way than there is currently... examples of driving home with a nut lose, we all have stories like that...no one ever takes a risk driving their perfect vehicles home do they...what sanctimonious irrelevant statements we keep coming up with. THE MV community needs to stick together, lets get lobbying our MP's to help us continue this noble hobby and maintain our massive history for all people...lets not consign them all to the Scrap Yard... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue red blue Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 wasnt a loose nut, the who nut had gone and the only thing holding the pin in place and there fore the track was friction, add to that going full tilt down a quite narrow country rd, those are the prats who will balls it up for every one else.these are the same people who pass there h test on a mini digger then go and buy a 432.thw whole system needs sorting.432's and abouve are big heavy bits of kit on par with hgv's. im sure most of the owners/drivers on here are more than safe and very carefull however as with normal car drivers there are clowns out there who arnt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidewinder Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 Exactly, while most 432 owners have a genuine interest in their vehicles and know and understand how to inspect/repair and maintain their vehicles properly and responsibly, I do get the impression that there are also probably an equal amount of owners out there who don't know and care and don't want to know. They just see them as toys and fun, its people like this who will ruin it for everyone else. Ultimately until someone has an accident in one and the courts decide their interpretation of the law then we could argue about this forever. What I am saying is from what I have read and understood, I wouldn't want to be the person stood in the dock... That said, I also think that to some extent it does depend a lot on the circumstances in which the vehicle is used. The occassional gentle run down quiet roads is completely different and has a lot less potential for harm than 'blasting' around your local city centre every weekend. That still doesn't change the fact however that the steering, braking and parking brake are all done through the same assembly, at least in other vehicles if your steering or brakes fail you still have some (albeit) limited control... but again its all relative, with proper maintenance scenaros like that should never occur in the first place... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big ray Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 :-( Crumbs wish i never asked. If anybody can give me a simple answer [before i buy one] in one sentence pm me please. Adrian YES................ unless you have a big field, dont buy one!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtistsRifles Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 Perhaps you should make you case to the Department of Transport and try and convinve them to make it legal then. I think most people on here would be more than happy to see such vehicles on the road rather than removed. Trying to talk to the DoT - or it's siblings from hell, VOSA and DVLA - is an exercise in futility. The former is under the the thumb of the politicians and the siblings exist merely as a method of gouging large amounts of £££'s from road users based in the UK. They ceased to be functional departments solely interested in the use/maintenance of the roads and road safety standards many years ago... I fear the ability to use ex-MV's on the roads will eventually go the same way as the non-vocational HGV licenses a lot of the classic commercial clubs wanted - rubber stamped rejected and filed in bin 13 as no one in the DoF understands the whys and wherefores whilst their masters in Westminster just want to score election points with the green loonies by getting more large and old vehicles off the road. Apologies if this comes across as overly cynical - but I spent 3 years trying to get a responsible answer out of them and failed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big ray Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 There appears to be a constant reference to the fact that the military have been using these vehicles on public roads for a considerable number of years. Any usage by the military cannot be compared in any shape or form with that of a private owner. I served in the army in the 1950s and all movement of transport was strictly controlled, both in terms of speed and traffic control by D.Rs at road junctions. None of this applies to the private user. I have a White M3 Halftrack, I would no more venture onto public roads without a co-driver than fly to the moon. At certain junctions the visibility is very restricted and requires considerable care when pulling into mainstream traffic. This is all about common sense, and we know that common sense is not so common. My apologies to any 432 owners for opening this can of worms. If only we were all good and sensible drivers, we would not need any of these laws.............. dream on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big ray Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 Hi JUst received this post off Big Ray......... "My understanding is that the 432s are not road legal, any that have been registered have been done in error, it would appear that they are too wide for U.K. roads, and the secondary breaking system does not comply....... just a thought before you part with your hard earned cash." Surely this is rubbish?? please enlighten me? Adrian I hope that you have not parted with any of your hard earned cash yet????????? :kissoncheek: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtistsRifles Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 Common sense says anything with that sort of restricted view should accompanied by at least one escort vehicle. Partly to provide cover on entering/exiting junctions and partly to stop the planks in things like BMW's who otherwise would think it fun to play russian roulette with heavy vehicles. I'm fairly certain that if we were able to use them under the STGO rules an escort vehicle is mandated there and if that were the price of being able to travel on the tracks I for one would be more than happy to do so. Paying a mates fuel will be a hell of a lot cheaper than a low loader especially over short runs!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mk3iain Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 Width issues aside surely some clever person could engineer a kit to fit a second (Main ) brake system to the G, box outputs? As far as lack of visiblility, I find them to be very good if you have a decent set of mirrors properly set up (For H/S police please assume all safety patronising clever dick statements have been made), the forward driving position is great at junctions and is certainly no worse than a some LGVs . As I have said before this vehicle was deemed suitable by VOSA (tech dept) for H class tests with a driver only. And the tests were carried out by an ex Army examiner who was familiar with tracked vehicles and this vehicle type ! The driver should be familiar with and practised at driving the vehicle safely. We are certainly good at digging holes for ourselves, and finding a stick to use on ourselves. All the information required to make an informed decision is in this forum, all we can ask is that everyone behaves in a safe and legal (as far as you can know as a layman!) manner. It seems these kind of issues are waiting on a test case, if we all act responsibly and with care it will not be down to us. :drive: Drive safe and have fun! Rant over! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 (edited) there is always one who will spoil it for everyone else...the 432 is perfectly safe on UK roads. How can it be perfectly safe when as it has already been pointed out, and it is Highlighted in the manual as being a possible problem, that " having the drive couplings between the final drives and steering box fail.. ALL STEERING AND BRAKING WILL BE LOST!" ? The person who will spoilt it for everyone is the one who says to himself, but that could never happen, and then therefore takes an illegal vehicle out on the road, the drive shafts fail and he looses all brakes and kills someone, (or a whole family)..... Edited July 2, 2011 by antarmike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Barrell Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 Out of interest, does anybody know of this being a problem in service? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 (edited) I don't know whether an actual problem that happened with any regularity but if it even happened once, then it must be a possibility of it happening to one of us. An Acquaintance of mine missed a gear Change running downhill in a Cent, and couldn't get it back in any gear. The brakes would not pull him up and he runaway down hill, he left the road on a bend, crashed through a wall, went between an occupied farmhouse and a cattle shed with Beasts in, taking out the Framer's outside latrine on the way. Fortunately no-one was performing at the time. My point being that a Cent's brakes probably don't meet standards, Driven expertly using the Crash Gearbox to downchange, the engine holds the speed, but if something unexpected happens and you find you do not have sufficient service brakes you are in deep Poo Poo. You loose both drive shafts in a FV432 and you loose all braking (as the manual says) but in a downhill runaway, if only one drive shaft has failed and therefore you can only brake one track, and using that would throw you into oncoming traffic on one side, or a shopping precinct on the other, you are still in deep Poo Poo. Edited July 2, 2011 by antarmike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferrettkitt Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 (edited) If you were to loose both tracks on a tracked vehicle you would have the same situation no brakes. This topic is going round and round in circles covering and coming to the same conclusions as before. Edited July 2, 2011 by ferrettkitt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 (edited) If you were to loose both tracks on a tracked vehicle you would have the same situation no brakes. That is true. (and that may make it very sensible not to drive any tracked armour on the road) But ultimately my point is not that it may or may not happen, or that a vehicle is safe or it is unsafe. We have a situation where we know that un-modified an FV432 does not comply with Max width of 2.55m for a vehicle, and its brakes do not comply with requirements for a secondary service brake that will offer sufficient braking to remain safe should the primary braking system fail. This makes use of FV432 on UK roads illegal. I cannot see how that can be disputed. The original question was is FV432 legal, the answer is no. What anyone chooses to do about that is up to them. I am only answering the original question. I offer my advice, don't buy one don't attempt to run one on UK roads, but that is only advice. As I see it that is the end of the discussion since the original question has been answered. Don't shoot the messenger, I am not out to spoilt it for anyone (or everyone) I am trying to prevent a fellow MV enthusiast whose enthusiasm might get in the way of sober judgement, ending up in prison after a fatal accident. Edited July 2, 2011 by antarmike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mk3iain Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 (edited) Good grief, how many things can go wrong all of a sudden! Any vehicle can fail and cause an accident, but we dont over analyse every detail of our cars etc A wheel could fall off or a tyre blow out, the prop shaft could snap, when I fly in an airoplane the wings could fail!!!:shocked: I have never been aware of tracked vehicles causing huge amounts of casulties on our roads or demolishing buildings,........ maybe there is a government cover up! :yawn: Lets not panic!!:-D As I have said, all the information you need is on this forum to make an informed decision, due in no small measure to Mike and others. Edited July 2, 2011 by Mk3iain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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