paulob1 Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 anyone know the law on when it is compulsory to have seat belts fitted...I know its law to use them if fitted, but what is the law to have then fitted in my vehicles which are all 50's 60's and 70's vehicles...I have been looking it up and it seems that we should fit them to all our vehicles but cannot believe that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chevpol Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 dont know when,. but I have been told that if a vehicle is fitted with them, you cant remove them even if the vehicle is exempt from them, anybody else heard that one? Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob8066 Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 Good post. It will definately be compulsory if you've got children on board, know quite a few people who have been cauggt out in jeeps & Land Rover's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulob1 Posted February 18, 2011 Author Share Posted February 18, 2011 been trying to fathom this all out, so if the thing is a heavy good vehicle before 1980 I dont need to retrospectively fit seat belts...but if they are fitted we have to use them. I am going to fit them to my foden plus a couple of extra seats and the daf has them, but will be getting two extra seats in the sleeping area, the zil 131's I am going to look into this and see if they have points then will fit them to these too... the regulations are an absolute mine field...1980's are bad news for HGV's thanks antarmike... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andym Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 Is there also not something about the seat belt anchorages having to be correctly marked as well? I don't think you can just bolt seat belts on ... Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidewinder Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 I had something similar in my old Series 2 Land Rover. It had no seat belts when I bought it and flew through the MOT without them. Perfectly legal as it was exempt on age grounds. However the MOT tester said that if I choose to fit seatbelts then they had to comply with the current regs. Which I later did. Correct mounting points being the big one, as Andy says you can't just bolt them on anywhere they have to have 'solid' mounting points, there will be a lot of force on the seat belt mounts in the event of a crash. Just bolting them to bodywork won't do, as they'll just pull out or distort the metal. I would imagine if you're retro fitting seats then it won't matter as to the age, as I get the impression that any modifications have to comply with current standards. Either way, and just my opinion, but why not fit them anyway? Seatbelt kits aren't exactly expensive. Is it really worth taking the risk whether its legal or not? James Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulob1 Posted February 18, 2011 Author Share Posted February 18, 2011 that is my thought process, but on 30 vehicles and over 100 seats it gets complicated, expensive and questionable... for the foden, long journeys now and again, its getting them, for the diesel zils long journeys they are getting them the rest of the vehicles, that do very limited mileage, less than 500 a year, some less than 100 a year then likely these will stay without... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 Very long answer. I am not going into this in full. See Road vehicles (construction and use) Regs 1986 Sect 46 and 47 But basically Seat belt anchorage points and belts Only need fitting to:- Bus first use on or after 1.4.82 Wheeled motor car first use on or after after 1.1.65 Three wheeled motorbike U/w exceeding 225 Kgs First use on or after 1.9.70 Heavy Motor car First use on or after 1.10.88 Excepted vehicles Goods vehicles (other than DPV):- First use before 1.4.67 First use on or after 1.4.80 and before 1.10.88 having gross weight over 3.5Tonnes or First use before 1.4.80 and manufactured before 1.10.79 and first use before 1.4.82 and in either case unladen weight over 1525Kgs. Agric Motor vehicle Motor Tractor Works Truck Electric vehicle First use before 1.10.88 Pedestrian controlled vehicle Vehicle which has been used outside UK, being driven from the place of arrivalk in UK to the owners or driver's home or a place to be fitted with nachorage points and seat belts. Vehicles having Max speed not exceeding 16 MPH Motorbike fitted with a seat for sitting astride which is constructed or assembled by a person not ordinarily employed in the trade of assembling such vehicles A locomotive. Anchorages need fitting as following chart. Definitions Exposed forward facing seat means:- 1. a forward facing front seat (including any crew seat) and the drivers seat and 2. any other forward facing seat which is not immediately behind and on the same horizontal plane as a forward facing, high backed seat. Non protected seat means:- not a front seat and the screen zones within the protected area have a combined surface area of less than 800 square Cms. Urban bus a bus designed for urban use with standing passengers Specified Passenger seat the forward facing front seat alongside the driver, or if more than one such seat the one furthest away. If there are no seats as above, the foremost forward facing seat furthest away from the driver (unless there is a fixed partition in front of it. Item 1 Any vehicle first use before 1.4.82 requires belts on Drivers seat and specified passenger seat (if any). Item 2 Minibus carrying not more than 12 in addition to the driver , motor ambulance, motor caravan in any case first use on or after 1.4.82 but before 1.10.88 belts required as per item 1 Item 3 Minibus not falling within items 7 and 8 and gross weight exceeding 3.5 Tonnes, Motor ambulance, motor caravan in any case first use on or after 1.10.88 requires belts to drivers seat and every forward facing front seat. Item 4 Goods vehicle first use on or after 1.10.88 but before 1.10.01 with gross weight over 3.5Tonnes needs same belts as item 3 Item 5 Goods vehicle first use on or after 1.10.01 gros weight over 3.5 Tonnes needs all forward facing front seats. item 6 Coach first use on or after 1.10.88 but before 1.10.01 needs all exposed forward facing seats. Item 7 Bus, other than urban bus gross weight over 3.5 Tonnes first use on or after 1.10.01 needs every forward and every rearward facing seat. Item 8 As item& but gross weight not exceeding 3.5 Tonnes needs as item 7 Item 9 Passenger or DPV other than bus, first use on or after 1.4.82 an not falling within item 2 to 8 needs every forward seat constructed or adapted for not more than one adult. Item 10 vehicle (other than bus) first use on or after 1.4.82 and not falling within items 2 to 9 needs every forward facing seat and every non protected seat. To be continued.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8_10 Brass Cleaner Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 Very long answer. I am not going into this in full. See Road vehicles (construction and use) Regs 1986 Sect 46 and 47 But basically Seat belt anchorage points and belts Only need fitting to:- Bus first use on or after 1.4.82 Wheeled motor car first use on or after after 1.1.65 Three wheeled motorbike U/w exceeding 225 Kgs First use on or after 1.9.70 Heavy Motor car First use on or after 1.10.88 Excepted vehicles Goods vehicles (other than DPV):- First use before 1.4.67 First use on or after 1.4.80 and before 1.10.88 having gross weight over 3.5Tonnes or First use before 1.4.80 and manufactured before 1.10.79 and first use before 1.4.82 and in either case unladen weight over 1525Kgs. Agric Motor vehicle Motor Tractor Works Truck Electric vehicle First use before 1.10.88 Pedestrian controlled vehicle Vehicle which has been used outside UK, being driven from the place of arrivalk in UK to the owners or driver's home or a place to be fitted with nachorage points and seat belts. Vehicles having Max speed not exceeding 16 MPH Motorbike fitted with a seat for sitting astride which is constructed or assembled by a person not ordinarily employed in the trade of assembling such vehicles A locomotive. Anchorages need fitting as following chart. Definitions Exposed forward facing seat means:- 1. a forward facing front seat (including any crew seat) and the drivers seat and 2. any other forward facing seat which is not immediately behind and on the same horizontal plane as a forward facing, high backed seat. Non protected seat means:- not a front seat and the screen zones within the protected area have a combined surface area of less than 800 square Cms. Urban bus a bus designed for urban use with standing passengers Specified Passenger seat the forward facing front seat alongside the driver, or if more than one such seat the one furthest away. If there are no seats as above, the foremost forward facing seat furthest away from the driver (unless there is a fixed partition in front of it. Item 1 Any vehicle first use before 1.4.82 requires belts on Drivers seat and specified passenger seat (if any). Item 2 Minibus carrying not more than 12 in addition to the driver , motor ambulance, motor caravan in any case first use on or after 1.4.82 but before 1.10.88 belts required as per item 1 Item 3 Minibus not falling within items 7 and 8 and gross weight exceeding 3.5 Tonnes, Motor ambulance, motor caravan in any case first use on or after 1.10.88 requires belts to drivers seat and every forward facing front seat. Item 4 Goods vehicle first use on or after 1.10.88 but before 1.10.01 with gross weight over 3.5Tonnes needs same belts as item 3 Item 5 Goods vehicle first use on or after 1.10.01 gros weight over 3.5 Tonnes needs all forward facing front seats. item 6 Coach first use on or after 1.10.88 but before 1.10.01 needs all exposed forward facing seats. Item 7 Bus, other than urban bus gross weight over 3.5 Tonnes first use on or after 1.10.01 needs every forward and every rearward facing seat. Item 8 As item& but gross weight not exceeding 3.5 Tonnes needs as item 7 Item 9 Passenger or DPV other than bus, first use on or after 1.4.82 an not falling within item 2 to 8 needs every forward seat constructed or adapted for not more than one adult. Item 10 vehicle (other than bus) first use on or after 1.4.82 and not falling within items 2 to 9 needs every forward facing seat and every non protected seat. To be continued.... The law is a bit of an ass when it comes to children too. Under the age of 3, they need to be in an approved car seat, which in turn needs to be fitted in the type approved way. That is either using isofix mountings or via seatbelts. I have a 1930 vintage car, so it has no seatbelts, nor isofix mountings. I can't fit either as the car does not have type approved mountings. So technically it is illegal for an anklebiter of less than 3 years old to travel in it. Boo hoo. Once said anklebiter is 3 they can travell unrestrained, provided the vehicle is not required to have them fitted, and does not in fact them fitted. :shocked: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 (edited) Good post. It will definately be compulsory if you've got children on board, know quite a few people who have been cauggt out in jeeps & Land Rover's. The law is a bit of an ass when it comes to children too. Under the age of 3, they need to be in an approved car seat, which in turn needs to be fitted in the type approved way. That is either using isofix mountings or via seatbelts. I have a 1930 vintage car, so it has no seatbelts, nor isofix mountings. I can't fit either as the car does not have type approved mountings. So technically it is illegal for an anklebiter of less than 3 years old to travel in it. Boo hoo. Once said anklebiter is 3 they can travell unrestrained, provided the vehicle is not required to have them fitted, and does not in fact them fitted. :shocked: There are exceptions from Children needing to either wear an appropriate seat belt or even the need to wear any seat belt. Motor Vehicles (wearing of seat belts) Regs 1993 and section 15 Road Traffic Act 1988 Exceptions to Sections 15(3) include (there are others but I don't think they are particularly relevant... ) A large child is excepted in a motor vehicle "if no appropriate seat belt is available in the rear" Exception to S15 (3A) A child "if no appropriate seat belt is available in the front of the vehicle". This reads to me as if the vehicle is excepted having seat belts fitted by virtue of its date of first use, then a child can be carried not wearing a seat belt. If I am wrong, could someone point out to me why my interpretation is incorrect. Seat belts are not required in Locomotives and Motor tractors. It appears to me that children carried in these classes are excepted from wearing Belts http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1993/176/regulation/9/made The exceptions are here. http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1993/176/regulation/10/made where in particular see Quote regs" (2) The prohibition in section 15(3) of the Act does not apply in relation to a small child in a passenger car if no appropriate seat belt is available for him in the front or in the rear of the vehicle. (3) The prohibition in section 15(3) of the Act does not apply in relation to a small child in a vehicle other than a passenger car if no appropriate seat belt is available for him in the rear of the vehicle. (4) The prohibition in section 15(3) of the Act does not apply in relation to a large child in any vehicle if no appropriate seat belt is available for him in the rear of the vehicle. (5) The prohibition in section 15(3A) of the Act does not apply in relation to a child if no appropriate seat belt is available for him in the front of the vehicle. " unquote Again it sound like Traffic Coppers only knowing the simple basics, and not knowing the totality of the exceptions. I cannot see that seat belts are required for Children in pre 1965 Jeeps and Land-rovers or 1930's vintage cars, any Motor tractor or Locomotive that do not have seat belts fitted. The law is certainly stupid as it relates to children wearing seat belts. Children of any age can be carried without seat belts in a Police car, or Emergency Services vehicle. (they never have crashes do they!) Edited February 18, 2011 by antarmike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8_10 Brass Cleaner Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 There are exceptions from Children needing to either wear an appropriate seat belt or even the need to wear any seat belt. Motor Vehicles (wearing of seat belts) Regs 1993 and section 15 Road Traffic Act 1988 Exceptions to Sections 15(3) include (there are others but I don't think they are particularly relevant... ) A large child is excepted in a motor vehicle "if no appropriate seat belt is available in the rear" Exception to S15 (3A) A child "if no appropriate seat belt is available in the front of the vehicle". This reads to me as if the vehicle is excepted having seat belts fitted by virtue of its date of first use, then a child can be carried not wearing a seat belt. If I am wrong, could someone point out to me why my interpretation is incorrect. Seat belts are not required in Locomotives and Motor tractors. It appears to me that children carried in these classes are excepted from wearing Belts http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1993/176/regulation/9/made The exceptions are here. http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1993/176/regulation/10/made where in particular see Quote regs" (2) The prohibition in section 15(3) of the Act does not apply in relation to a small child in a passenger car if no appropriate seat belt is available for him in the front or in the rear of the vehicle. (3) The prohibition in section 15(3) of the Act does not apply in relation to a small child in a vehicle other than a passenger car if no appropriate seat belt is available for him in the rear of the vehicle. (4) The prohibition in section 15(3) of the Act does not apply in relation to a large child in any vehicle if no appropriate seat belt is available for him in the rear of the vehicle. (5) The prohibition in section 15(3A) of the Act does not apply in relation to a child if no appropriate seat belt is available for him in the front of the vehicle. " unquote Again it sound like Traffic Coppers only knowing the simple basics, and not knowing the totality of the exceptions. I cannot see that seat belts are required for Children in pre 1965 Jeeps and Land-rovers or 1930's vintage cars, any Motor tractor or Locomotive that do not have seat belts fitted. The law is certainly stupid as it relates to children wearing seat belts. Children of any age can be carried without seat belts in a Police car, or Emergency Services vehicle. (they never have crashes do they!) Mike as ever the relevant sections are very usefull This is the source of my info. It is consistent with your comments, but not when in comes to children under 3 Sadly no references to the law! http://www.dft.gov.uk/think/focusareas/children/childincar?page=FAQ&whoareyou_id= Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 (edited) Mike as ever the relevant sections are very usefull This is the source of my info. It is consistent with your comments, but not when in comes to children under 3 Sadly no references to the law! http://www.dft.gov.uk/think/focusareas/children/childincar?page=FAQ&whoareyou_id='>http://www.dft.gov.uk/think/focusareas/children/childincar?page=FAQ&whoareyou_id='>http://www.dft.gov.uk/think/focusareas/children/childincar?page=FAQ&whoareyou_id= You could well be correct regarding a child under three. AA seem to agree with you. http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/child_safety/seatbelts.html Regarding your link, http://www.dft.gov.uk/think/focusareas/children/childincar?page=FAQ see point 13. Quote Frequently asked question 13"13. What do I do if my vehicle - - has no seat belts, or no rear seat belts? If a vehicle has no seat belts - if it's a classic car, for example - a child aged 3 years and over is allowed to travel in a rear seat unrestrained. A child under 3 years old may not travel in cars, vans or goods vehicles which do not have seat belts."unquote So yes there is a probelm with Child under three but a kid over the age of three can ride in a pre 1965 Jeep or Land Rover not fitted with belts. Edited February 19, 2011 by antarmike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 (edited) Good post. It will definately be compulsory if you've got children on board, know quite a few people who have been cauggt out in jeeps & Land Rover's. To clarify, true for children under three, not correct for children over the age of three.. http://www.dft.gov.uk/think/focusareas/children/childincar?page=Overview&whoareyou_id= Quote from overview...." 4) In older vehicles with no rear seat belts. In this case, children 3 years and over may travel unrestrained." unquote Edited February 19, 2011 by antarmike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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