New slant on Titanic story

[ArtistsRifles]

This makes interesting reading... Particularly the last part about the why of the Titanic going down... How true it is remains open to question, particualrly the part about being under way by order of Bruce Ismay,

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/booknews/8016751/The-truth-about-the-sinking-of-the-Titanic.html#disqus_thread

 

The truth about the sinking of the Titanic

 

Louise Patten, whose grandfather was the only surviving officer on the Titanic, reveals the truth about how it sank.

 

By Peter Stanford

Published: 11:00PM BST 21 Sep 2010

 

All families have their secrets, but usually about things that don’t matter to anybody else. Not in the case of Louise Patten, though – or The Lady Patten to give her her full title, the wife of former Tory Education minister, Lord (John) Patten, though her own career as one of the first women board directors of a FTSE 100 company, and as a successful author of financial thrillers, means that she has plenty of achievements in her own right.

 

As a teenager in the 1960s, Patten was let in on a secret by her beloved grandmother, which, if revealed, she was warned, would result in two things. The first was awful – it would destroy the good name of her dead grandfather, Charles Lightoller, awarded the DSC with Bar in the First World War, and a hero again for his part in the evacuation of Dunkirk in 1940. But the second would change history, overturning the authorised version of one of the world’s greatest disasters, the sinking of the Titanic with the loss of 1517 lives in April 1912.

 

 

The tension between these two outcomes goes some way to explaining why, for 40 years, Patten kept quiet, not even, she reveals with a girlish chuckle from underneath the fringe of her striking black bob, telling her husband what she knew. What did he say when she finally did? 'I think it was “Good God”.’ Now, though, 56-year-old Patten has finally decided to come clean with the rest of the world in her latest novel, Good as Gold.

But can there really be anything new to say, almost 100 years on, about the Titanic? 'My grandfather was the Second Officer on the Titanic,’ Patten explains. 'He was in his cabin when it struck the iceberg. Afterwards, he refused a direct order to go in a lifeboat, but by a fluke he was saved.’

Astonishingly, he jumped into the ocean as the boat sank, was being sucked down into the depths - but was then carried back to the surface by the force of an explosion beneath the waves and was rescued by a passing lifeboat.

As the senior surviving officer, he was asked at both official inquiries into the sinking [by the US Senate and the British Board of Trade] whether he had had any conversation after the collision with the Captain or the First Officer, William Murdoch, who had been in charge at the time. In other words, did he know exactly what had happened? And both times he said no. But he was lying.’

What then did he know that he wasn’t telling? 'After the collision,’ Patten goes on, 'my grandfather went down with the Captain and Murdoch to Murdoch’s cabin to get the firearms in case there were riots when loading the lifeboats. That is when they told him what had happened. Instead of steering Titanic safely round to the left of the iceberg, once it had been spotted dead ahead, the steersman, Robert Hitchins, had panicked and turned it the wrong way.’

At first glance it sounds extraordinary that anyone – much less the man put in charge of the wheel on the maiden voyage of what was then the world’s most expensive ocean liner – could have made such a schoolboy error. But, Patten explains, requisitioning knives, napkins and even the breadbasket on the table of the London hotel where we meet for breakfast to give a practical demonstration of what she means, there was a very particular technical reason for this otherwise incredible error.

'Titanic was launched at a time when the world was moving from sailing ships to steam ships. My grandfather, like the other senior officers on Titanic, had started out on sailing ships. And on sailing ships, they steered by what is known as “Tiller Orders” which means that if you want to go one way, you push the tiller the other way. [so if you want to go left, you push right.] It sounds counter-intuitive now, but that is what Tiller Orders were. Whereas with “Rudder Orders’ which is what steam ships used, it is like driving a car. You steer the way you want to go. It gets more confusing because, even though Titanic was a steam ship, at that time on the North Atlantic they were still using Tiller Orders. Therefore Murdoch gave the command in Tiller Orders but Hitchins, in a panic, reverted to the Rudder Orders he had been trained in. They only had four minutes to change course and by the time Murdoch spotted Hitchins’ mistake and then tried to rectify it, it was too late.’

Patten’s grandfather – who later set up his own marine-repair business at Richmond-on-Thames and is commemorated to this day by a blue plaque where the boatyard used to stand – shared with his wife, Sylvia, a second and potentially even more damning secret. If the steersman Hitchins had made a human error, Bruce Ismay, chairman of the White Star Line, owners of the Titanic, and another survivor of the sinking, gave a lethal order.

'Titanic had hit the iceberg at her most vulnerable point,’ explains Patten, 'but she could probably, my grandfather estimated, have gone on floating for a long time. But Ismay went up on the bridge and didn’t want his massive investment to sit in the middle of the Atlantic either sinking slowly, or being tugged in to port. Not great publicity! So he told the Captain to go Slow Ahead. Titanic was meant to be unsinkable.’

Cue more demonstrations with napkins and cutlery. 'Am I boring you?’ she asks, as she arranges them. On the contrary, I am gripped by the feeling of getting inside history and Patten has clearly checked her grandfather’s account lines up with all the other evidence gathered over the decades. 'If Titanic had stood still,’ she demonstrates, 'she would have survived at least until the rescue ship came and no one need have died, but when they drove her 'Slow Ahead’, the pressure of the sea coming through her damaged hull forced the water over the bulkheads and flooded sequentially one watertight compartment after another – and that was why she sank so fast.’

It is an extraordinary claim that, after all the inquiries, films, books and, more recently, pinpointing of the wreck on the bottom of the Atlantic, the unlikely figure of a highly respected but apparently unconnected businesswoman in London rather than some Titanic obsessive holds the key to the mystery of what happened on that fateful night. Why, though, I puzzle, would Patten’s grandfather, who sounds like a thoroughly honest and brave man, have lied and carried on lying? 'Because,’ she explains, 'when he was on the rescue ship, Bruce Ismay pointed out to my grandfather that if he told the truth, the White Star Line would be judged negligent and its limited liability insurance would be invalid. Ismay pretty much said that the whole company would go bust and everyone would lose their jobs. There was a code of honour among men like my grandfather in those days. So he lied to protect others’ jobs.’

But why didn’t her grandmother speak up after her husband’s death in 1952? 'She was worried about showing this heroic figure to be a liar. And my mother, who also knew the secret and was even uncomfortable with Granny having told me, felt even more strongly about it. She hero-worshipped my grandfather.’

So there this secret sat, locked in a family circle from which Patten is now the only survivor. 'I have an older sister but she was away at boarding school most of the time. Because I was ill as a teenager, I spent a lot of more time at home with my grandmother’.

Why speak up now? 'Well everyone else is dead, but’ – she pauses, clearly still in two minds about what she has done – 'I can still hear my mother’s voice saying my grandfather must be remembered as a hero’.

This is the sort of tale that most writers would have tackled years ago, and treated as a non-fiction, best of all a memoir. So why work it in to a novel? 'Because I write thrillers,’ Patten replies crisply, and makes me think what an effective chairman of the board she must be. 'I started planning a thriller about a family with secrets, about a private banking dynasty involved with shipping, and then I suddenly thought I have this massive family secret myself and it is about shipping.’

After all those years of silence, could it really have been that straightforward? 'Well, not really. This sounds mad, I know, but once I started thinking about it, I felt as if I owed it to the world to share the secret. If I died tomorrow and then it would die with me.’

 

[Tony B]

Hitchin's mistake at the helm, was not unusual at the time. Still can be a problem if you go from tiller to wheel steer on small boats. The other grief at the time was the change from points to degrees. I used to be able to box a compass, but would struggle now.

[fesm_ndt]

I just wonder if it is another revision of history based on nothing as this was released to coincide with her book release which is fiction from memory

 

Dont get me wrong if its correct :yay: if BS then :noyay:

 

Seems to me too fast, in an unknown vessel in iceberg conditions..... hmmm doing a dig through my stuff as I had a HSE assement on it

 

 

 

‘Safety outweighing every other consideration?’

Was the framed notice in the

chart room of every White Star liner in 1912

The Olympic – Prelude to Disaster

 

 

 

 

†21st Jun 1911

 

·Upon commissioning crashed into & almost sunk O.L. Halenbeck in Manhattan

†20th Sep 1911

·Crashed into the Naval Cruiser the HMS Hawke in Southampton

†24th Feb 1912

·Knocked-off one of its twenty-six tone propellers on a well-known wreck in the Grand Banks (Captained Edward J. Smith)

 

 

 

Captain Edward J. Smith

 

 

 

†27th Jan 1889

·Ran The Republic aground in New York

†1st Dec 1890

·Ran The Coptic aground in Rio de Janerio

†4th Nov 1909

·Ran The Adriatic aground outside New York

 

 

 

History of running ships too fast through narrow passages.. and of not adequately training his officers

Captain Smith was commissioned to command the Titanic

 

 

 

† 14th April 1912

·Smith received at least six warnings of Ice field from ships at dead stop in the area

·No binoculars in the crow’s nest meant that early warning was near impossible

·Titanic sped toward ice field at 22.5 knots vs a recommended 10 knots in such conditions

†Motivations for this speed

·Desire to break the transatlantic speed record as encouraged by J. Bruce Ismay MD of White Star who was on board for the maiden voyage

†Safety Response Capability

·Lifeboats on the ship had been reduced from sixty-four boats to twenty-two in lieu of more expansive promenades

·The officers on board The Titanic had not trained with the lifeboats and were unsure of their holding capacity

·There was not a standing safety-response plan.. the ‘Women and Children first’ response was a reaction more than a previously-agreed plan.

The Results

 

 

 

 

†Lives Saved: 705

†Lives Lost: 1500

†Total passengers 2,205

†Max Lifeboat Capacity 1,600

†It wasn’t until 45 minutes after the collision that officers commenced preparing the lifeboats

†Twenty lifeboats were launched

†Officers feared that the ship’s davits & winches would not hold the weight of the recommended 70 people

†All but the last few lifeboats floated were half-filled

†It is a fact that had the Officers filled the lifeboats per their specification an additional 600+ people could have been saved.

 

 

 

 

 

[andym]

I just wonder if it is another revision of history based on nothing as this was released to coincide with her book release which is fiction from memory

 

The versions of "the truth" about the sinking seem to be multiplying as we approach the centenary ...

 

Andy

[Tony B]

The suggestion about the helmsman isn't that new. As I've said it was a known problem.Like many things of this nature there have to be hero's and villians. Which you end up is a matter of chance.

There is also the 'S** hapens factor'. The original officer who had the key to the binocular store was ordered off the ship at the last minute, and took the key! Once again the social norms of the time palyed there part. As to the 45 minutes before launching boats. the descicon was made, in fact had ben suggested when she was designed that if holed the Titanic would be her own lifeboat. The conditions that night made the officers fear for the sfatey of those in the boats. Hindsight , a wonderful way of critising ordinary men under extrodinary circumstances.

Edited September 23, 2010 by Tony B

[R Cubed]

There is a documentary Mon night CH4 21.00 about rebuilding sections of the Titanic to scale and using the original methods or manufacture !!!!!

 

Might be good to see.

[Tony B]

Great TV, but I think pointless. One of the biggest question marks over the Titanic is the quality control of matrial used. How are they going to replicate that?

[steveo578]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/b...#disqus_thread

The truth about the sinking of the Titanic

 

Louise Patten, whose grandfather was the only surviving officer on the Titanic, reveals the truth about how it sank.

 

By Peter Stanford

Published: 11:00PM BST 21 Sep 2010

 

All families have their secrets, but usually about things that don’t matter to anybody else. Not in the case of Louise Patten, though – or The Lady Patten to give her her full title,........

 

 

I know I will be called a pedant again:nut:, but I would be more willing to believe the Daily Telegraph article written by Mr Stanford if he managed to get simple things correct-

 

Pippa Patten nee Wickes attains her title through her husband John (Chris) Patten -Lord Patten (Baron) of Barnes -therefore her title would not be

the

lady Patten but simply Lady Patten- the attition

the

to a title for example

the hon

... or

the Princess

.... signify that the holder of the title was born to that title for example Princess Anne is

The

Princess Royal, whereas Diana could never be

the

princess Diana. AFAIK the title Lord and Lady Patten of Barnes was acquired- otherwise he could not be an MP without renouncing the title under the 1962 act.

 

If Mr Stanford after the necessary education to be a bylined reporter on a national broadsheet can't get this right-I would be somewhat unlikely to believe the accuracy of anything he writes.

 

I tend toward fesm_ndt take on it

fesm_ndt

I just wonder if it is another revision of history based on nothing as this was released to coincide with her book release which is fiction from memory

however

 

·

Crashed into the Naval Cruiser the

HMS Hawke

in

Southampton

†

24th

Feb 1912

 

 

HMS Hawke rammed Olympic. Olymipic may have been to blame for other reasons but the result was that Hawke put its exagerated victorian ram into Olympic

aft of the fourth funnel

and was so badly damaged it was rebult with a straight stem only to be lost shortly after the outbreak of WW1.

 

Steve

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 24, 2010 by steveo578
correction area where hawke damaged Olympic

[antarmike]

There was a very big lifeboat in the area which could have taken all the passengers...Namely the Iceberg. Had the limited number of lifeboats been used to ferry everyone to the iceberg, no-one would have died.......They would have been cold sat on the ice, but would have been their when rescue ships arrived....

 

The Titanic could have been manoevered very close to the Berg.....

 

This is the biggest mistake in the whole sad story....

[15cwt]

Oh what fun, I can't wait for the Iceberg as a life raft discussion to start!

[steveo578]

15cwt Oh what fun, I can't wait for the Iceberg as a life raft discussion to star

 

 

Ok if you insist:D

 

Problems with that scenario - where was the ice berg I'm certain it wasn't stuck on th pointy end of Titanic:shocked:, Titanic struck a glancing blow damaging the starboard side for about 80foot by the time they realised the ship was mortally wounded the ice berg would be miles astern. By that time being down by the head would make turning around impossibly dangerous-causing a more rapid sinking.

 

Assuming a locally available suitable piece of ice berg was nearbye trying to land people particularly women and children onto an ice sheet from small boats in the dark would be difficult- no harbours or landing stages on ice bergs- even low lying ice can have walls 12feet high and underwater ice making it difficult to land. The possible solution may have been to make for a comparatively nearbye Califorian -but that assumes the Titanic was capable of manoever or even making any head way by that time.

 

The worst thing is it's easy to have 20-20 hindsight in simple terms by the time the officers of titanic realised the ship was fatally damaged the ship was already too far gone to manoever it anywhere.

 

Personally I'm staggered at why Northern Ireland in particular seem bent on "cellibrating" the titanic -it was nothing to be proud of.

 

Steve

[fesm_ndt]

Great TV, but I think pointless. One of the biggest question marks over the Titanic is the quality control of matrial used. How are they going to replicate that?

 

that was another theory in that brittle fracture occured because at that time it was not known about. However I believe brittle fracture and faulty fabrication have been discounted from the hull samples lifted from the sea bed.

 

Regarding brittle fracture many Liberty ships sunk this way, originally thought to have occured due to enemy action. It wasn't discovered until one broke in half in harbour and it was investigated they worked out what was occuring.

 

If anyones interested I'll try and find the piccies and details as it was a quite an important investigation.

Edited September 24, 2010 by fesm_ndt

[fesm_ndt]

I suppose what ever the issues were is was a complete screw up and 1500 people died.

 

The design was useless as the sister ship hit a mine and went down quicker. From memory it was a smaller hole but the bulkhead doors were still ineffective

 

I just find given the Captain's track record he was an odd choice, perhaps he had old boy connections, perhaps he could be bullied into going to fast. Wasn't he going to retire after this trip? We will never know but as said above we can only guess on the peoples mindsets or thoughts prior to and at the time as regardless of their possible failing no-one wanted an accident to occur.

Edited September 24, 2010 by fesm_ndt

[andym]

We will never know but as said above we can only guess on the peoples mindsets or thoughts prior to and at the time as regardless of their possible failing no-one wanted an accident to occur.

 

Agreed. Titanic was built not only to be the largest and most luxurious ship afloat, but also the safest, even if nowadays we may question some of the design decisions.

 

One of the problems with applying hindsight is that people's actions may seem odd or even downright dangerous to us now, but we don't have their mindset. Careering at twenty-plus knots through a known area of ice may seem suicidal, but it was common practice. Titanic carried the number of lifeboats required by the Board of Trade at the time as they were only intended to act as ferries to another vessel.

 

A lot of myth has become "fact" due to repetition. As an example, Titanic wasn't at maximum speed when she hit the iceberg as has often been stated. Her maximum speed isn't known as she'd never had all the boilers lit; that trial was due to take place the next day. Accounts from passengers and crew at the two enquiries differ, as you'd expect, and over the years writers have chosen which ones to repeat and which to ignore in order to "prove" their version of what happened. Perhaps as the centenary approaches it's time for a thorough, unbiased reappraisal of the witness statements?

 

And as for Belfast celebrating the centenary? Why? Money! :cool2:

 

Andy

Edited September 24, 2010 by andym

[steveo578]

andym

A lot of myth has become "fact" due to repetition. As an example, Titanic wasn't at maximum speed when she hit the iceberg as has often been stated. Her maximum speed isn't known as she'd never had all the boilers lit; that trial was due to take place the next day.

Very true and I better correct my previous post before it becomes myth:D Hawke hit Olympic aft of funnel four and not as I previously said.

 

As to the Titanic speed while the various vessels of the Olympic class varried somewhat we can be fairly sure that Titanic could not maintain more than 21knots with 23knots hoped for as a burst speed, whereas its rival Cunards Mauretainia could maintain 22-23knots and burst 24knots- hence that Titanic was built as a blue ribband candidate is also myth.

 

There is a good chance that even 21knots might have been problematic due to the screw configuration of the Olympic class being 3 x shafts. Cavitaon and therefore vibration was always a problem with large centre screw vessels this was apparent in WW2 British aircraft carriers -that need a good sprint speed to enhance deck landings, Illustrious being the worst example having had it hull twisted by Kamikasze attack it ended its carreer with the centre prop removed.

 

And as for Belfast celebrating the centenary? Why? Money! :cool2:

quite; dare I say a good dollup of "Belfast" logic involved- give them another 50years and they'll be taking yankies on "the troubles tours":shocked:

 

Steve

[steveo578]

 

• fesm_ndtThe design was useless as the sister ship hit a mine and went down quicker. From memory

 

However Olympic managed to survive a catistrophic collision that should have caused her to be scrapped- the ship had in effect broken its back and was tail wagging on its slow return journey to Belfast. Olympic continued to serve until 1934.

 

Regarding brittle fracture many Liberty ships sunk this way, originally thought to have occured due to enemy action. It wasn't discovered until one broke in half in harbour and it was investigated they worked out what was occuring.

I'm fairly sure that the liberty ship problem was due to welding and poor layout of prefabricated structural sections- the British built Teeside ship building consortium riveted equivelents to the Liberty ship never had that problem -although they were built with poor materials and were just plain s****.

[ArtistsRifles]

Wasn't the Liberty ship problem found to be the square edges/profile of the cargo holds inducing stress points and thus fractures as the ship worked in the seas. the welded construction transferring the stress's to these weak points????

[andym]

However Olympic managed to survive a catistrophic collision that should have caused her to be scrapped- the ship had in effect broken its back and was tail wagging on its slow return journey to Belfast. Olympic continued to serve until 1934.

 

She also struck and sank U103 in WW1 and earned the nickname "Old Reliable" for her commercial service after the war. It was the third ship, Britannic, that struck a mine (or possibly a torpedo) in 1916.

 

I think the current theory about "defective materials" is focused on the rivets, not the plates themselves. There's a belief that the collision with the iceberg caused to rivet heads to fail and spring the seams.

 

For those who want to make up their own mind about what happened, I'd recommend http://www.titanicinquiry.org/ as a good read, but it will take you a while!

 

Andy

[R Cubed]

Great TV, but I think pointless. One of the biggest question marks over the Titanic is the quality control of material used. How are they going to replicate that?

 

I think you got the wrong end of the stick a bit, only posted the program details so people can watch it if they want to to see the process of what went on for the general construction of the ship, nothing more, personally I think it will be quite interesting to see what they go through, not that I know what the documentary is going to be like....

[steveo578]

ArtistsRifles

Wasn't the Liberty ship problem found to be the square edges/profile of the cargo holds inducing stress points and thus fractures as the ship worked in the seas. the welded construction transferring the stress's to these weak points????

 

I don't doubt that the point you make is also valid, the point I was making was about butt welding prefabricated sections together rather than the traditional overlapping riveted plates at major frames prevelant in the wartime Smith Dock designed/built - Teesside shipbuilders consortium utility cargo vessels.

Steve

[Tony B]

I think you got the wrong end of the stick a bit, only posted the program details so people can watch it if they want to to see the process of what went on for the general construction of the ship, nothing more, personally I think it will be quite interesting to see what they go through, not that I know what the documentary is going to be like....

Proably did. One thing forgotten was that at the time Titanic was the biggest , the best , the revelutionary..... rather like the Comet? She was the technological edge of what was obtainable at the time...R101 comes to mind as well. If men build it, nature can breack it.

[ArtistsRifles]

The problem with cutting-edge technology is that sometimes it cuts both ways sadly!!

[fesm_ndt]

I'm fairly sure that the liberty ship problem was due to welding and poor layout of prefabricated structural sections- the British built Teeside ship building consortium riveted equivelents to the Liberty ship never had that problem -although they were built with poor materials and were just plain s****.

 

You need 3 things to cause brittle fracture, stress (residual or applied), iniation point (defect in weld) and at a temperature below the brittle to ductile transition phase. Crack propagation can be over a km a sec so it is the holy grail of defects for people interested in this as it is almost always catastrophic. The thicker the material the more susceptible

 

UK did all the follow up research and investigations which determined the full causes

 

http://www.twi.co.uk/content/oilgas_caseup31.html

Edited September 25, 2010 by fesm_ndt

[fesm_ndt]

Proably did. One thing forgotten was that at the time Titanic was the biggest , the best , the revelutionary..... rather like the Comet? She was the technological edge of what was obtainable at the time...R101 comes to mind as well. If men build it, nature can breack it.

 

ahh the Comet ......... another milestone in fracture mechanics. Pity is we never learn from our mistakes but keep repeating them again and again.

[R Cubed]

Proably did. One thing forgotten was that at the time Titanic was the biggest , the best , the revelutionary..... rather like the Comet? She was the technological edge of what was obtainable at the time...R101 comes to mind as well. If men build it, nature can breack it.

Biggest and best, yes but could the engineers have built it any differently and not had the problems.