Best towing vehicle for 40' drawbar trailer?

[Iain]

Hi,

I was wondering if anyone has any experience of towing drawbars & what would be the best vehicle for the job?

I've bought a big old 1940s/50s Showmans Living Van. I'd like to use a period British Army lorry to pull it with & I would be wanting a 4x4/6x6.

The wagon weighs around 8 tons, so that narrows my choice even more. She's 34' + 6' A-frame, 11' high x 9' wide.

It would be good (but maybe hoping!) if the lorry could manage 50mph for dual-carriageways etc.

I'd guessed from looking at other rigs that the shorter the length of the lorry, the better?

 

I've kind of narrowed it down to a Scammell Explorer. I've always really liked Mk.1 AEC militants as well (there's one for sale just down the road from me), but seems like top speed is around 30 mph? The Mk III seems to have a better turn of speed (I know it's 60s/70s). But it's 7' longer than the Scammell.

 

Any suggestions/advice would be much appreciated, up to now it's just been me & my copy of Tugs of War for help!!

Cheers, Iain

[Sean N]

can I legally pull a living van behind an old vehicle taxed Historic?

Yes, but a living van, as opposed to a caravan, is defined as being capable of carrying a load, as well as being living accomodation. Hovever you can only tow living van if no load is carried. A Caravan is defined as being living accomodation only, with no way of carrying a load.

 

what is the definition of a living van?

 

see above

 

 

We have to be careful of meanings here. Most people when talking about things such as Iain's Pilot or similar vans would refer to them as "living vans", "showmans' trailers", or "showmans' living vans". That doesn't mean they're using it to mean what the road traffic legislation calls a living van.

[Richard Farrant]

We think the manufacturer may have been "Pilot" caravans, as it bears a strong resemblance to that family of van. The owner also once had a visit from an elderly showman, who told him straight away that he recognised it as a Pilot. Unfortunately, Pilot Caravans don't exist any more, and tapping in "Pilot" & "caravan" on the web, brings up thousands of links to aircraft pilots, who own caravans, funnily enough!

 

 

 

 

Iain,

 

Pilot Caravans changed there name and the successor is still in business, check this out;

www.torton.com/index.php?page=pressArticle&press=4b0e92c9ab306

[antarmike]

That's not to say that they are necessarily 100% in compliance with all the laws of the land, but hopefully work 'within the spirit of the law' in a responsible manner....

 

 

I would have thought that the spirit of the law is to allow what is a reasonable width, and only allow anything wider than that is the is an absolute necessity to do so.

 

I think I am right in saying the width of trailers and rigids was increased from 2.5m to 2.55m to enable them to carry two standard pallets internally.

 

The width of an insulated vehicle is determines by agreeing the same internal width as ordinary vehicle, so that two pallet can still be carried but the walls can be built thicker to give insulation.

 

There is a very good reason why Refrigerated trailers and refrigerated rigids are allowed to be wider than the standard 2.55

 

Special types allows a very few vehicles to be wider because they have to be, but it generally accepted that this is to allow commercial operation and to allow business's to function. Special types wasn't set up to anble the pleasure use of any old vehicle you choose.

 

I have been running the Antar, I believe, under the letter of the law, but recognise what I was doing may not have been in the spirit of the legislation.

 

If anything the spirit of the legislation should deter use of wide vehicles, just for pleasure, although the letter of the law may not have envisaged this outcome, and there may be some occasions when STGO vehicles can be legally used, that were not forseen when the legislation was drawn up, and loopholes left in it..

 

I don't think you can reasonably argue that it Okay to ignore width limits, and claim this to be within the Spirit of the legislation.

Edited June 12, 2010 by antarmike

[N.O.S.]

...I don't think you can reasonably argue that it Okay to ignore width limits, and claim this to be within the Spirit of the legislation.

 

I hope you are not suggesting that was what I was arguing - anyway you failed the Nissen hut test :nono:

 

Confusius, he say - 'if you don't wish to to be misquoted, best to make no comment in the first place'.

Edited June 12, 2010 by N.O.S.

[cosrec]

I think this issue of overwidth will go on for a long time. People think they have found loopholes in the laws and have convinced them selves they are running legal. Up to now i favour Antarmikes interpretaion of the laws.

Someone asked "why are there so many overwidth old vehicles in recreational use if it is illegal?

Beacuse although technically illegal, at the moment police and Vosa don't really care."

Up to now we havnt had a mini bus full of people hit a overwidth vehicle bumper at head hieght. Feel sure Police Vosa and every Claims lawyer in country would take a much greater interest. Plus i would hate to have to get my insurance company to reinstate my policy and defend the claim

[Iain]

I suppose I should point out (although I've been reluctant to do so, for reasons that will quite possibly become apparent), that this wagon isn't a toy, being bought for happy weekending. It is for my family & I to live in full time.

We have sold our previous home, to make way for the wagon, which I genuinely believed would be perfectly legal to use once I had passed any relevant HGV tests. This is the culmination of years of planning & dreaming.

We are now living in cramped, uncomfortable accomodation, that was only supposed to be temporary.

What makes it even more difficult for me, is that absolutely everyone around me, from my girlfriend who works in local government, to my sister who is a very senior police officer (in Scotland), are telling me to just get on with it!! Of course, they aren't the ones who risk losing their license...or worse.

Stressed?!? Me!?!?!?!

Yup.

[Iain]

Iain,

 

Pilot Caravans changed there name and the successor is still in business, check this out;

www.torton.com/index.php?page=pressArticle&press=4b0e92c9ab306

 

Thanks for that Richard, that's the only bit of good news I've had all week!! :-)

[Marmite!!]

I suppose I should point out (although I've been reluctant to do so, for reasons that will quite possibly become apparent), that this wagon isn't a toy, being bought for happy weekending. It is for my family & I to live in full time.

We have sold our previous home, to make way for the wagon, which I genuinely believed would be perfectly legal to use once I had passed any relevant HGV tests. This is the culmination of years of planning & dreaming.

We are now living in cramped, uncomfortable accomodation, that was only supposed to be temporary.

What makes it even more difficult for me, is that absolutely everyone around me, from my girlfriend who works in local government, to my sister who is a very senior police officer (in Scotland), are telling me to just get on with it!! Of course, they aren't the ones who risk losing their license...or worse.

Stressed?!? Me!?!?!?!

Yup.

 

Why not contact the relevant authorities (DVLA/VOSA/Police) & try to get something firm in writing from them if you believe all is well, at least that way if anything does happen that turns out not to be in compliance with whatever regs/law you will have some form of defense.. just a thought...

[cosrec]

Why not contact the relevant authorities (DVLA/VOSA/Police) & try to get something firm in writing from them if you believe all is well, at least that way if anything does happen that turns out not to be in compliance with whatever regs/law you will have some form of defense.. just a thought...

Good idea but none of the above would back you up in court. I think a better idea would be to get an opinion from say the RHA assoiation lawyer or Somebody who has lawyers connected with the transport industry

Edited June 12, 2010 by Marmite!!
quote tags added

[Degsy]

Good idea but none of the above would back you up in court. I think a better idea would be to get an opinion from say the RHA assoiation lawyer or Somebody who has lawyers connected with the transport industry

 

It would still only be an opinion albeit a legal view and if lawyers were always right they would never lose a case:D. Looking at it from another angle how about checking to see if there has already been a court case to set a precedent, if there has then you would know definitely one way or the other.

[antarmike]

I hope you are not suggesting that was what I was arguing - anyway you failed the Nissen hut test :nono:

 

Confusius, he say - 'if you don't wish to to be misquoted, best to make no comment in the first place'.

 

So what is the answer to the Nissen hut test?

[cosrec]

 

It would still only be an opinion albeit a legal view and if lawyers were always right they would never lose a case:D. Looking at it from another angle how about checking to see if there has already been a court case to set a precedent, if there has then you would know definitely one way or the other.

Reason i said get an opinion they check regards the law and suggest if further opinion is required if cut and dried they state this or at least the have on the two occasions i have reason to use them. Both were in connection with the transport recovery industry. When they give their opinion they will quote precedents. i would sooner trust their advice than that some of the barrack room lawyers who post on here. Their cost arnt as great as you would imagine and they will stand up and argue your case if they think your right Edited June 13, 2010 by cosrec

[Steifbear]

Having towed our new Showmans living van back to the farm today i can say that the Scammell explorer tows beautifully 25-30 is a perfect speed for it.

 

I will post some pictures later.

 

Cheers

 

Pete

[N.O.S.]

So what is the answer to the Nissen hut test?

 

It's a bit like some of the legislation applying to old military vehicles - I've never been able to work it out :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

 

Best ask a structural engineer or a lawyer.

[antarmike]

I suppose I should point out (although I've been reluctant to do so, for reasons that will quite possibly become apparent), that this wagon isn't a toy, being bought for happy weekending. It is for my family & I to live in full time.

We have sold our previous home, to make way for the wagon, which I genuinely believed would be perfectly legal to use once I had passed any relevant HGV tests. This is the culmination of years of planning & dreaming.

We are now living in cramped, uncomfortable accomodation, that was only supposed to be temporary.

What makes it even more difficult for me, is that absolutely everyone around me, from my girlfriend who works in local government, to my sister who is a very senior police officer (in Scotland), are telling me to just get on with it!! Of course, they aren't the ones who risk losing their license...or worse.

Stressed?!? Me!?!?!?!

Yup.

PM sent

[Iain]

Having towed our new Showmans living van back to the farm today i can say that the Scammell explorer tows beautifully 25-30 is a perfect speed for it.

 

I will post some pictures later.

 

Cheers

 

Pete

 

Explorer? Grrr...jealous! :-)

 

Can I ask, what are the dimensions of your van?

 

Cheers, Iain

[antarmike]

Explorer? Grrr...jealous! :-)

 

Can I ask, what are the dimensions of your van?

 

Cheers, Iain

 

I have one for sale!! (Explorer, that is)

[Steifbear]

As i am out at the moment sanding it i will take some more photos and measurements for you. The Showmans caravan is going tot be rented out for feature holidays on the campsite at the farm. but will also serve as a home from home at some of the larger rallies i.e. dorset woop woop!!! (cheers AM)

[Degsy]

. When they give their opinion they will quote precedents. i would sooner trust their advice than that some of the barrack room lawyers who post on here.

 

Ain't that the truth:D

[Iain]

I have one for sale!! (Explorer, that is)

 

Mike, could you pm me some details please? That'd be great! An Explorer has always been top of my list, whether I buy this particular wagon or not.

 

Cheers, Iain

[Iain]

Well, I've decided to carry on with the buy.

 

If I back out now, it'll be leaving the family selling it in a right mess, it's kind of against my principles to shake on a deal & then scuttle off!

 

It's being delivered to our bit of land, so that's no problem. My girlfriend is pointing out that she won't have wrapped up her official job until next year. So, as long as I don't mind staying put until then (grumble..mutter..etc.), I'll either have found a legal solution, or we can re-sell it & buy a smaller one.

There's also the possibility we made a mistake with the measuring in the first place! I can't see it being wrong by 7" or so really, but you never know. The owners are away at the mo, so they can't retry that until they get back tomorrow.

 

I've had a couple of requests for pictures, to help try & confirm whether it's a Pilot or not, so here's some I took when I went to see it.

 

Cheers, Iain

[Sean N]

Iain, are the shiny things along the edge of the roof aluminium panels or are they opening roof lights (windows)?

 

I'm not sure it is a Pilot as I'm not sure they ever had those, and it's lacking a couple of Pilot features such as rounded corners to the bottom of the windows. Could it actually be a Panloaf?

[Iain]

Iain, are the shiny things along the edge of the roof aluminium panels or are they opening roof lights (windows)?

 

I'm not sure it is a Pilot as I'm not sure they ever had those, and it's lacking a couple of Pilot features such as rounded corners to the bottom of the windows. Could it actually be a Panloaf?

 

Sean,

Yes, they are opening windows.

 

I think "Panloaf" is a generic term for the style of wagon?

 

The other maker the owner mentioned was "Tilly/Tilley". Don't know where he heard it, and I can't find any reference to them as a maker of caravans. I do have a pressurised Tilley paraffin lamp, but sure an' they never made vans?!

 

I found a few (defunct) links to "Pilot Panloaf" vans for sale, but no pics as they're a few years old.

 

These pics are of

1) A van in Glasgow Transport Museum, marked as "A Pilot Panloaf". Not especially similar are they, apart from the basic shape?

2) A caravan that's apparently a Pilot (although they're not sure either). This is much closer. Note the wheel spats are almost identical to the ones on the front of my van. Also the aluminium strip around the middle & the rear lights.

 

Also checked Rollalong (I used to work for a company called Rollalong, laying fibre-optic cables at an MOD site in Hampshire, sure they didn't make vans either!), Palladin & Tudor caravans. None of these look quite right. Hmm.

 

I e-mailed Torton bodies, who used to be Pilot (thanks Richard!), waiting to see if they can shed any light.

 

Cheers, Iain

[Sean N]

Sean,

Yes, they are opening windows ... I think "Panloaf" is a generic term for the style of wagon?

 

 

I thought so too until recently, but I was told by someone who's normally reliable on these things that Panloaf was actually a short-lived make but became a generic term.

 

Talking about this lastnight, I was told it couldn't be a Pilot with those roof lights as they didn't do them. In fact, that's what suggested Panloaf.

 

The other maker the owner mentioned was "Tilly/Tilley". Don't know where he heard it, and I can't find any reference to them as a maker of caravans. I do have a pressurised Tilley paraffin lamp, but sure an' they never made vans?!

 

I found a few (defunct) links to "Pilot Panloaf" vans for sale, but no pics as they're a few years old.

 

These pics are of

1) A van in Glasgow Transport Museum, marked as "A Pilot Panloaf". Not especially similar are they, apart from the basic shape?

2) A caravan that's apparently a Pilot (although they're not sure either). This is much closer. Note the wheel spats are almost identical to the ones on the front of my van. Also the aluminium strip around the middle & the rear lights.

 

Cheers, Iain

 

I've heard of Tilley but couldn't tell you anything about them.

 

IMHO the Glasgow van is much more typical of Pilot. The tatty one I don't know, but I'd have said that wasn't a Pilot, mainly as the windows are wrong.

[Iain]

I've just heard back from the MD of Torton(Pilot). He's worked for them for 38 years, & is sure it isn't a Pilot, although he says there are similarities, but neither he or his staff recognise it.

 

The owner re-measured the van. Came back just as we measured it the first time. He also measured the bellyboxes & that is exactly 2.55 metres. Hmm...