Best towing vehicle for 40' drawbar trailer?

[Iain]

Hi,

I was wondering if anyone has any experience of towing drawbars & what would be the best vehicle for the job?

I've bought a big old 1940s/50s Showmans Living Van. I'd like to use a period British Army lorry to pull it with & I would be wanting a 4x4/6x6.

The wagon weighs around 8 tons, so that narrows my choice even more. She's 34' + 6' A-frame, 11' high x 9' wide.

It would be good (but maybe hoping!) if the lorry could manage 50mph for dual-carriageways etc.

I'd guessed from looking at other rigs that the shorter the length of the lorry, the better?

 

I've kind of narrowed it down to a Scammell Explorer. I've always really liked Mk.1 AEC militants as well (there's one for sale just down the road from me), but seems like top speed is around 30 mph? The Mk III seems to have a better turn of speed (I know it's 60s/70s). But it's 7' longer than the Scammell.

 

Any suggestions/advice would be much appreciated, up to now it's just been me & my copy of Tugs of War for help!!

Cheers, Iain

[Lewis Garner]

Hi Iain,

The Scammell isn't exactly what you'd call speedy either!

Regards, Lewis

[antarmike]

A lot of living vans are not happy being towed at much more than 30 MPH. Certainly 40 is the limit for many of them. don't be put off by 30 speed maximum, you cover almost as much ground at 30 max as youi do at 40, since there is never any traffic i front of you and you won't have to queue to get out of junctions!

 

I did a rally with Matador and living van, a mate left at the same time with a solo Land-Rover. Journey was 20 miles. Mate put the kettle on when he reached my house, and it hadn't boiled by the time I arrived.

[honeileen]

30mph is quite a good and safe speed to haul a van around like that, if you were trying to 50 or even 40 think of the fuel costs!!:shocked:

 

Christian

[Markheliops]

30mph is quite a good and safe speed to haul a van around like that, if you were trying to 50 or even 40 think of the fuel costs!!:shocked:

 

Christian

 

Agree with Antarmike on this one.

 

I wouldn't tow a showmans trailer at 50mph.

 

I pull the Brockhouse trailer with the Ward La France and on motorways 40mph will be my max. Stopping is my main concern rather than the top speed.

 

I just relax, enjoy the scenary and check my rear view mirrors to see how far the traffic has built up behind me. Of course I do pull over at suitable points along the B roads.

 

Markheliops

[diamond 981]

Agree with Antarmike on this one.

 

I wouldn't tow a showmans trailer at 50mph.

 

I pull the Brockhouse trailer with the Ward La France and on motorways 40mph will be my max. Stopping is my main concern rather than the top speed.

 

I just relax, enjoy the scenary and check my rear view mirrors to see how far the traffic has built up behind me. Of course I do pull over at suitable points along the B roads.

 

Markheliops

 

 

I couldn t tow a showmans trailer at 50mph.

 

25mph is max with the Diamond T with or without my showmans trailer.

[Iain]

Sorry about the delay in answering guys, I didn't realise the thread had actually been posted!

 

Anyway, I think I'm agreeing with everyone as far as travelling speed is concerned. But do the police not order you off the dual-carriageways/motorways if you can't drive above a certain speed (50mph I thought)?

The guy I've bought the wagon from used a Magirus-Deutz to pull her with. He guessed the weight of the lorry at about 7.5 tons. I'd have thought it was more like 5/6, & the lorry looks absolutely tiny next to the wagon! I think the Magirus just looks a bit lightweight for the job (it is for sale as well).

 

My planned budget is around £6000, although I could stretch to around £9000 for The Perfect Truck! Ideally I'd prefer a flatbed, for carrying my 13' 4x4.

 

Here are my thoughts on the types I've considered so far. Again, please feel free to correct my guesswork!

 

AEC Matador: Love them! I bought myself one for my 21st birthday. It was then stolen (& probably scrapped) about 4 months later! Very slow on any upward slope & I think the wagon may be a bit too much for one to handle comfortably.

 

AEC Militant Mk I/III: Again, love them! Tempted by a Mk I a few miles away at a good price. I think the same speed issues apply though, 35mph max? Mk IIIs faster, but almost impossible to find other than the recovery version? Forward-control cab a bonus as far as bed length:overall length is concerned.

 

Scammell Explorer: Slower than I'd originally thought, otherwise almost certainly the man for the job! I think I could live with the recovery body on this one!

 

Ural 375/4320: I know, not a '50s Brit, but they seem like pretty capable bits of kit. Petrol 375 hideously thirsty, diesel 4320s expensive to buy. Seems like a bit of a lottery finding a good one. I did have a plan a few years ago, of going to the Ukraine with a chum to buy one & drive it back. I then met a Ukrainian girl. I mentioned this to her & she burst out laughing & spent the next couple of minutes in hysterics!! Her opinion: We'd be eaten alive!!

Spares?

 

Zil 131: Good looking things. Underpowered & thirsty with the original petrol engine. I'm looking at one with a turbo-diesel Cummins engine. Worried that the truck itself is a bit lightweight for the job?

 

I think that's about it really.

 

Cheers, Iain :-D

[Markheliops]

The minimum speed for propelled vehicles on a motorway is 30mph.

 

As far as I am aware - there is no such restriction on other types of roads.

 

I would guess individual trucks with different engines will determne what speed you can reach.

 

My diesel powered Ward La France can now travel at 50mph on motorways and 40mph on urban roads. It can quite happily pull the 4 tonne Brockhouse on a motorway at 50mph but I prefer to bimble along at 40-45mph.

 

Not too shabby for a WWII recovery truck.

 

Markheliops

Edited June 9, 2010 by Markheliops

[N.O.S.]

OK I know it is not your ideal period truck, but I suppose you could go more modern - with all that 'post 1960' entails (MOT, etc). What about a Bedford TM? Nice heavy truck, your 4x4 would fit in dropside body, and just dandy for towing the van.

 

Spares not too too bad, trucks are getting very cheap now as all will be disposed of over next year or two. Try Crouch Recovery for a good deal.

Edited June 9, 2010 by N.O.S.

[N.O.S.]

..... but I prefer to bimble along at 40-45mph.

 

Mark - Cummins B series don't do "bimble" - get with the program please

[Degsy]

How wide a trailer are you allowed to tow,is the width restricted to 2.55m as 9ft equates to almost 2.75m

[Iain]

OK I know it is not your ideal period truck, but I suppose you could go more modern - with all that 'post 1960' entails (MOT, etc). What about a Bedford TM? Nice heavy truck, your 4x4 would fit in dropside body, and just dandy for towing the van.

 

Spares not too too bad, trucks are getting very cheap now as all will be disposed of over next year or two. Try Crouch Recovery for a good deal.

 

N.O.S., I have thought about a TM. Totally capable I'm sure, and a good deal more practical than a '50s lorry. But... it's just... well... I don't know... I suppose I don't want to make life too easy!

I'm going to keep looking at older vehicles for now, but the TM's a back-up plan!

Funny, but I was intending to give Crouch Recovery a ring tomorrow anyway, about Militants though!

 

Cheers, Iain

[antarmike]

How wide a trailer are you allowed to tow,is the width restricted to 2.55m as 9ft equates to almost 2.75m

 

Yes trailers limnited to max width of 2.55m(unless refrigerated trailer 2.6m)

 

A trailer over 2.55m wide requires Special types authorisation.

[N.O.S.]

N.O.S., I have thought about a TM. Totally capable I'm sure, and a good deal more practical than a '50s lorry. But... it's just... well... I don't know... I suppose I don't want to make life too easy! .......

 

You don't need to explain - there's a bit of that in all of us! :-)

[Markheliops]

N.O.S., I have thought about a TM. Totally capable I'm sure, and a good deal more practical than a '50s lorry. But... it's just... well... I don't know... I suppose I don't want to make life too easy!

I'm going to keep looking at older vehicles for now, but the TM's a back-up plan!

Funny, but I was intending to give Crouch Recovery a ring tomorrow anyway, about Militants though!

 

Cheers, Iain

 

Last time I was there he had a nice Constructor fitted with a Scania diesel engine.

[Stormin]

Last time I was there he had a nice Constructor fitted with a Scania diesel engine.

 

Sacrilege!

[Iain]

Yes trailers limited to max width of 2.55m(unless refrigerated trailer 2.6m)

 

A trailer over 2.55m wide requires Special types authorisation.

 

:shocked: News to me! Does that mean I need;

a) Special permission/escort to tow it?

or

b) A special type of license?

or

c) Both!?

 

At the moment, I only have a 7.5 ton. I'm intending to take HGV tests over the next few months though. I've been told that I can technically drive a pre-1960 lorry with said wagon on the license I've got, but it seems to be a bit of a grey area.

I've decided to take the HGV just to be on the safe side, & have some drawbar training while I'm at it. I'm not intending to tow the wagon anywhere until I've completed that.

If the wagon ever gets delivered that is! The company that're supposed to be delivering it for me are really dragging their heels! A month has passed & they still won't give me a date for the pick-up! Meanwhile, the guy I've bought it off is going spare, 'cos he's supposed to be working in France from last week, instead he's kicking his heels waiting....

Cheers, Iain

[Iain]

Last time I was there he had a nice Constructor fitted with a Scania diesel engine.

 

Constructor?? Mmm.... Shall certainly give him a ring tomorrow! Think it may be a bit out of my price range though, judging by the others I've seen offered in the last year or so.

However, you never know until you ask! Thanks for the tip Mark.

Cheers, Iain

[antarmike]

:shocked: News to me! Does that mean I need;

a) Special permission/escort to tow it?

or

b) A special type of license?

or

c) Both!?

 

At the moment, I only have a 7.5 ton. I'm intending to take HGV tests over the next few months though. I've been told that I can technically drive a pre-1960 lorry with said wagon on the license I've got, but it seems to be a bit of a grey area.

I've decided to take the HGV just to be on the safe side, & have some drawbar training while I'm at it. I'm not intending to tow the wagon anywhere until I've completed that.

If the wagon ever gets delivered that is! The company that're supposed to be delivering it for me are really dragging their heels! A month has passed & they still won't give me a date for the pick-up! Meanwhile, the guy I've bought it off is going spare, 'cos he's supposed to be working in France from last week, instead he's kicking his heels waiting....

Cheers, Iain

 

Reg 8 (construction and use) regs 1986

Max width of all the following trailers is 2.55m

Trailer drawn by a motor vehicle (having a max weight exceeding 3.5 Tonnes),

Agricultural Trailer

Agricultural Trailed Appliance

or an offset combination of an Agric Motor vehicle drawing a wheeled trailer.

 

If drawn by any other vehicle ( eg motor weight not exceeding 3.5 Tonnes) was 2.3m but now up to 2.55m

 

unless drawn by a motor cycle when the max width is 1.5m

 

A Refrigerated trailer (where the thickness of insulation is at least 45mm) can go to 2.6m wide.

 

Any trailer wider than this refer to "special types."

 

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/SI/si2003/20031998.htm

 

At a glance I cannot see a category within Special types to cover a wide drawbar caravan or living van.

 

My understanding that a living van wider than 2.55m is not legal and there does not seem to be a way of using it even by notifying, escorting etc, because there is not a special types category for it to fit into.

 

Where did the trailer come from, who built it and when, has it been used before and by whom?

 

My advice, don't buy it and find something else within lawful width!

Edited June 10, 2010 by antarmike

[gritineye]

Reg 8 (construction and use) regs 1986

 

If drawn by any other vehicle ( eg motor weight not exceeding 3.5 tons) max width is 2.3m

 

 

 

Mike, this part is now out of date..

 

http://www.practicalcaravan.com/newforums/fm_messages.asp?FO=5&FM=502824

[antarmike]

Mike, this part is now out of date..

 

http://www.practicalcaravan.com/newforums/fm_messages.asp?FO=5&FM=502824

 

Thanks, I wondered who would spot that one, Pike.

[Sean N]

Yes trailers limited to max width of 2.55m ... A trailer over 2.55m wide requires Special types authorisation.

 

But was the max width before 1986 wider? CU can't be made to apply to a vehicle built under an earlier version of the regs, can it?

[antarmike]

But was the max width before 1986 wider? CU can't be made to apply to a vehicle built under an earlier version of the regs, can it?

I believe width was 2.50m.

 

Permitted widths have increased over the years, I suspect this trailer may always have been too wide.

 

Has anyone accurately measured its width?

 

It is not unusual for overwidth vehicles and trailers to have been used for years, and very probably if it continued to be used it may not be a problem or get flagged down by the police.

 

However I have to say that max width for a trailer like this appears to be 2.55m. Its your call what you do but I have offered my advice.

 

Cheers Mike

[Iain]

Thanks for the info people, Mike especially.

 

Am now horribly confused!!

 

I measured the width with the owner when I went to see it. There is no makers info on the wagon itself, other than "Made in the British Empire" stamped on the inside of some of the panels! That isn't really much help, as when did the Empire cease to be? It could be a matter of personal opinion on the part of the maker. Or even old timber stockpiled & stamped before/during WWII. That's a completely un-educated guess by the way.

 

The wagon is a "Pan-Loaf" style, not the more usual Mollycroft. Most of these I've seen are mid '50s-'60s. The quality of materials & workmanship inside, is as good or better than any I've seen

 

We think the manufacturer may have been "Pilot" caravans, as it bears a strong resemblance to that family of van. The owner also once had a visit from an elderly showman, who told him straight away that he recognised it as a Pilot. Unfortunately, Pilot Caravans don't exist any more, and tapping in "Pilot" & "caravan" on the web, brings up thousands of links to aircraft pilots, who own caravans, funnily enough!

 

The current owner found it in a scrapyard 9 years ago, & the yard didn't have any information on its history. He hasn't moved more than a few miles a year with it.

 

My girlfriend suggests we just ignore the width issue, & claim (pretty much genuine!) ignorance if we get stopped. I'm just worried about what would happen if, say, we were involved in an accident. If the van is actually illegal to use, no doubt our insurance would be invalidated as well? Speaking as a survivor from a few appalling road accidents (not my fault, by the by), I've absolutely no interest in driving an illegal rig! I'd rather cancel the deal (and feel like a complete swine for mucking him about! :blush:) & wave goodbye to the £500 deposit

 

Cheers, Iain

[N.O.S.]

Difficult choice, Ian. Also very frustrating when you consider that many vans of similar width are probably currently in use on the roads.

 

If it was me I would first have a telephone conversation with a vehicle inspector through the great DVLA/VOSA phone system and see if there is any area our own experts have missed.

 

In fact run this scenario by them - what if you were to pull it with an overwidth vehicle (wider than the van), something like the 9ft 5" wide RAF Scammell Constructor on Milweb?

 

Sometimes IGNORANCE can be BLISS! Several folk have commented on here how they used to do things without a care and with no problems, but as they get older they become more aware of what could go wrong and that might lead to a greater awareness of the legal position and possible resultant modifying of what they do and how they do it.

 

Sounds like you've worked out what to do - but if you do plan to have a senior moment and forget what has been said, can I suggest you ask to have this thread pulled? :cool2:

Edited June 11, 2010 by N.O.S.
vehicle example

[David Ives]

try searching under showmans living wagons as that looks very much like a early version of their present living wagons which are towed by most erfs or any fairground trucks with air brakes