restoration Markheliops' Ward La France diesel conversion

[Grasshopper]

Richard, it is much bigger (and heavier!) than a jimmy one! The bearings are plain roller bearings with shims under the end caps for setting up the tooth alignment.

 

Mike- you might want to get a hydraulic 3 leg puller as i recall yours offered substantial resistance to being removed, even in Tims press.

[TooTallMike]

Mmmm nice double helical gears there :shocked: does it use standard roller bearings or are they taper ?

 

That transfer box does not look much bigger than my GMC one, but I should think it is, pictures can be sooo deceiving :wow:

 

Will the graunching on the low range gear have any effect suppose that is due to engaging on the move ?

 

Lets see some more oily stuff ...

Let's just say it's only just a two-man lift even with the oil drained out!

I think the damage to the gear is due to engaging while moving. I would like to fit a less-damaged gear if the one from Marks' box is better, but if not this will go back in. It shouldn't matter as long as the teeth engage: we really don't use low range very often in hobby use.

[Markheliops]

Hi all.

 

Quick update on the spanner work.

 

The sockets were moving so fast yesterday you could have lit your fags with them. First job yesterday was to sort out the steering box mounts.

 

On the Ward La France, as in most USA WWII heavy vehicles, the steering box is mounted to the chassis by use of rivets. Over time these have become loose. I only noticed this when I unbolted the steering column support when removing the cab.

 

I used a grinder to remove two rivets and replaced them with M14 nuts, spring washers and bolts. Job done.

 

 

Next on the job list was to deal with the issue of the front axle propshaft - or lack of it to be more precise.

 

I hate looking under the Ward and seeing - nothing - where the front prop used to connect to the front axle. I have discussed this in length with Mike. To be honest, we can see no reason why we would be required to engage front axle drive.

 

For this reason, I decided to remove the gearing in the front axle so we can re-install the front propshaft. The propshaft will not turn as it is no longer being driven by the front wheels and this will stop any vibration being felt. The truck will also look as it should with all propshafts present.

 

 

 

It was a very easy thing to do, especially with the engine removed.

 

Other tasks completed included slacking off the front shock mounts as this is where Mike intends to place the front engine mount support for the Cummins, removing some air pipes and some other bits.

 

Last job of the day was to dismantle the transfer box to enable removal of the low gear to be installed in my overhauled transfer box (See Mike’s previous thread). I completed this without any major issues, apart from rolling the transfer box over onto my foot!

 

 

Looking forward to Saturday now as Mike is coming down and we are hoping to install the engine for the first and last time.

 

Watch this space.

 

Markheliops

[N.O.S.]

I decided to remove the gearing in the front axle ......The truck will also look as it should with all propshafts present.

 

 

I think a friend of mine might have bought a secondhand Volvo articulated dumptruck off you recently......:cool2:

[R Cubed]

Hi all.

 

 

 

Next on the job list was to deal with the issue of the front axle propshaft - or lack of it to be more precise.

 

For this reason, I decided to remove the gearing in the front axle so we can re-install the front propshaft. The propshaft will not turn as it is no longer being driven by the front wheels and this will stop any vibration being felt. The truck will also look as it should with all propshafts present.

 

Markheliops

 

If there is no gearing in the front axle and so the front prop would be free to turn or stand still would there be an issue with once moving and prop is stationary so the shaft in the transfer box would also be stationary would this have any bad effects on the other parts of that shaft or bearings which will be driven.

[N.O.S.]

If there is no gearing in the front axle and so the front prop would be free to turn or stand still would there be an issue with once moving and prop is stationary so the shaft in the transfer box would also be stationary would this have any bad effects on the other parts of that shaft or bearings which will be driven.

 

Hey - good question!!!

 

Each of the three WLF transfer box shaft is supported at both ends by two bearings (top/bottom are timken tapers, centre shaft rollers/balls). Surprisingly the front axle declutch unit (which is a short shaft with a propshaft flange at one end and a sliding dog clutch at the other end, which mates to its alter ego on the transfer box shaft) is also independent (i.e. the short shaft has two timken tapers and does not rely on the end of one transfer box shaft for total support).

 

However - the transfer box shaft has a hole in one end, in which sits a spigot of the front axle declutch and drive shaft unit (for additional support when under front axle drive load). Both shafts would normally rotate at a similar speed, and would only rotate relative to each other when the rear axles had lost traction when not in 6 wheel drive, or front axle was turning very tightly).

 

With no gearing in front axle the plain spigot bearing shaft would rotate continuously against the idle front axle shaft spigot, and could well be liable to seizure in the transfer box shaft, at which point the propshaft would then simply rotate at same speed as if in front wheel drive.

 

You could always cut the spigot off the declutch shaft, but I don't think it would then be suitable for use in front wheel drive without the benefit of the extra support which the spigot offers.

Edited March 26, 2010 by N.O.S.

[rbrtcrowther]

Have i missed something:blush: why cant you run the truck as normal? If the propshaft will fit and connect between the flanges why cant it be turning ready for action if you need it? I would read back through the posts but the computer is being soooo slow at the mo:embarrassed:

[Grasshopper]

The front prop causes a lot of vibration and we really don't intend on getting a truck like this into a situation where the front wheel drive would be required. They are not great in mud (see earlier pictures of Mikes), so it's best avoided!

[rbrtcrowther]

Ah....:-) You could always fit a nice modern dynamicaly balanced propshaft. You shouldent know it's there.

[Grasshopper]

That was considered on Mikes truck but we don't do mud so its not required. Wards are not as good as Scammells in mud!

[Markheliops]

Hey - good question!!!

 

Each of the three WLF transfer box shaft is supported at both ends by two bearings (top/bottom are timken tapers, centre shaft rollers/balls). Surprisingly the front axle declutch unit (which is a short shaft with a propshaft flange at one end and a sliding dog clutch at the other end, which mates to its alter ego on the transfer box shaft) is also independent (i.e. the short shaft has two timken tapers and does not rely on the end of one transfer box shaft for total support).

 

However - the transfer box shaft has a hole in one end, in which sits a spigot of the front axle declutch and drive shaft unit (for additional support when under front axle drive load). Both shafts would normally rotate at a similar speed, and would only rotate relative to each other when the rear axles had lost traction when not in 6 wheel drive, or front axle was turning very tightly).

 

With no gearing in front axle the plain spigot bearing shaft would rotate continuously against the idle front axle shaft spigot, and could well be liable to seizure in the transfer box shaft, at which point the propshaft would then simply rotate at same speed as if in front wheel drive.

 

You could always cut the spigot off the declutch shaft, but I don't think it would then be suitable for use in front wheel drive without the benefit of the extra support which the spigot offers.

 

Ok - I'm confused on this.

 

NOS - need you to explain in plain English please.

 

I can not see the issue as Both Mike and I have not had a front axle propshaft fitted since having the trucks.

 

Am I missing something I should be aware off.

 

I have left the main gearing in the front axle (as shown in the pictures) - what I have removed is the gearing to transmit the drive to the front axle propshaft and I can't see an issue with this.

 

The axle gearing is splash fed and this will still be the case.

 

The transfer box end will not rotate but then it doesn't with the front axle disengaged anyway.

 

Do you really think this may caused me problems.

 

Waiting for your reply - with sweaty palms.

 

Ta

 

Markheliops

Edited March 29, 2010 by Markheliops

[N.O.S.]

Don't panic - the tall one is looking into it.

 

With no front prop on, you will probably find that the de-clutch shaft and front prop flange have been spinning round due to drag on the spigot shaft anyway.

 

With the front prop on, there may not be enough drag to turn it, so the spigot will spin in thge transfer box shaft. I'm just saying it could lead to friction and going tight therefore worst casde scenario the front prop may end up turning.

 

All you need to do is cut off the spigot which is shaded on the superb quality drawing below and problem solved (sadly no sectional drawings in the WLF manuals!!!).

 

Don't take the pee out of my drawing - I'm in a rush to cook supper before Mrs. NOS gets back, and she can be worse than a tired lorry driver sometimes about supper on the table oh b*gger she's just driven in the yard............

[Richard Farrant]

 

With the front prop on, there may not be enough drag to turn it, so the spigot will spin in thge transfer box shaft. I'm just saying it could lead to friction and going tight therefore worst casde scenario the front prop may end up turning.

 

.........

 

Hi Tony,

 

I can see exactly what you are saying, and to give a graphic illustration of the results that can occur, with the attached photo. This happened to an army Bedford MJ that was recovered with a front end lift, the front prop was not removed, this resulting in the output flange coming detached from the transfer box, propshaft and all., caused by the front output flange being stationary whilst the drive shaft is revolving. The interior layout is much the same on a lot of transfer boxes.

 

 

 

[gritineye]

Heard similar stories regarding Series LRs fitted with free-wheeling front hubs, although I never actually saw the evidence myself.

[N.O.S.]

Here you go, Mark. You can see the long spigot on the declutch shaft and the corresponding hole in the transfer box shaft. One is going to rotate inside the other. I suspect it could be a problem unless you cut the spigot piece off to avoid friction. Top banana to R3!

[R Cubed]

Here you go, Mark. You can see the long spigot on the declutch shaft and the corresponding hole in the transfer box shaft. One is going to rotate inside the other. I suspect it could be a problem unless you cut the spigot piece off to avoid friction. Top banana to R3!

 

Sorry to put a spanner in the works guys, as I was reading this thread it sprang to mind, not trying to teach anyone here to suck eggs don't know the Wards transfer box innards, but pictured the possible problem which has been confirmed by NOS.

 

Just a different brain working a different way......

[TooTallMike]

Sorry to put a spanner in the works guys, as......

Not at all matey - in fact you may have saved yet more heliops sadness! As Tony says, with the front prop removed, the friction of the spigot will probably be enough to keep the output yoke rotating therefore no different speeds and no damage. This friction would probably not be enough to overcome the extra load of the prop.

 

I bought a NOS prop from Beke's which I plan to fit to mine as the balancing should be about as good as it gets.

 

Mark - you possess a worn front axle declutch assy so if you wish to retain the visual presence of the prop it's probably easiest to get my favourite tool out again and hack off the spigot.

 

No one will ever know (who doesn't have internet access...)

 

- MG

[radiomike7]

Don't panic - the tall one is looking into it.

 

Don't take the pee out of my drawing - I'm in a rush to cook supper before Mrs. NOS gets back, and she can be worse than a tired lorry driver sometimes about supper on the table oh b*gger she's just driven in the yard............

 

Tony, there is nothing wrong with your drawing and it highlights the problem perfectly. We have a similar issue with recovery monkeys that extract one halfshaft before performing a lift and tow. Apart from oil everywhere and road dirt entering the bearings the differential gears which are steel on steel pins end up spinning at a huge rate and blueing the surfaces. Amazingly we have never had one seize - yet.

 

Mike, without seeing the alignment drawings for the front propshaft it is difficult to comment but could the vibration be resulting from unequal angles being run by the UJs? Rather than cutting the spigot can you not just leave out the rear part of the output shaft leaving the front part to support the stationary front prop?

Edited March 30, 2010 by radiomike7

[Markheliops]

Hi chaps -

 

Update so far.

 

Thanks R-cube for your input - still not 100% sure myself about how damage could occur to the transfer box but as enough people have raised and confirmed the issue - I shall bow to the advice given and remove the spigot in the de-clutch unit. I’m sure Mike shall fill me in with pictures and explanations. Thanks to those who have provided input and explanations.

 

Mike popped down on Saturday 27th March as this is what occurred:

 

After Mike’s last visit an issue with the modified radiator / intercooler revealed itself in that the intercooler pipes were two wide to fit in the space for the radiator frame.

 

This was overcome by Mike raising the radiator mounts so the whole unit sat higher in the frame.

 

 

 

As you can now see - the pipe work sits well above the wings and associated bodywork. Job done.

 

 

Next job was to sit the engine on the rear mounts and adjust the front so it was level to enable the welding of the front mounts.

 

This was achieved by a very simple solution.

 

A spirit level was placed on the chassis to ensure it sat level - which it did.

 

Then a spirit level was placed on the rocker cover

 

 

It was then a simple case of raising and lowering the engine to get the bubble in the middle to ensure the engine was positioned level.

 

 

 

The simplest methods are the best!!!

 

Once this was done, Mike and I set about manufacturing the front mounts. Mike can probably tell you in more depth how and why. I just cut bits of rubber for the engine mounts and cut and drilled plates for the main front mount.

 

The front engine mount involved using the original R22 front mount, the shock absorber mounts and manufacturing an angled support bar. All in all, it looked somewhat complicated to me but I was sure Mike knew what the hell we were doing!!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Once the mounts were completed, I was happy to see the engine sitting, unsupported in the engine bay on its new mountings.

 

 

 

 

Mike and I will be at the farm tomorrow - Sunday 11th - to progress further.

 

By the way - I shall advertise parts at another date but I am acquiring some parts no longer needed including a re-built R22 continental engine complete with Jolly engineering electronic ignition - if anyone needs one.

 

 

 

Update as and when.

 

Markheliops

Edited April 10, 2010 by Markheliops

[TooTallMike]

Transfer box is now stripped ready for rebuild tonight/tomorrow night.

 

 

A possible solution has presented itself regarding the front axle output shaft worry detailed earlier in this thread. The front axle de-clutch spigot actually engages with a yellow metal bush in the end of the transfer box output shaft as below:

 

 

I am wondering if removing this bush will be sufficient to eliminate the concerns over it all becoming as one? It seems the purpose of the spigot/bush is to centre the shaft so that the dog clutch engages cleanly. This will no longer be a problem if the axle drive internals have been removed. There is no lateral movement in the spigot shaft so I don't think it will contact the inside of the transfer output shaft itself with the bush removed.

 

The normal method of engaging the front axle is to roll the truck and click the drive in. With the axle not driving this will be impossible except by fluke so we will also have to remove the mechanical interlock between the front axle engagement and low range, since the first must be engaged before the second.

 

Why do you have to make things so difficult Mark? :n00b:

 

- MG

[TooTallMike]

Forgot to say: radiator is painted and fitted, intercooler pipes are fitted, fuel pipes 90% done...

[N.O.S.]

The intercooler air inlet/outlet has worked out really neatly (sorry - you've worked it out really neatly!!).

 

Good result on the presence of the bush - the removal of that will surely be enough to prevent any problems :-)

 

Can I pick your brains on the clutch assembly e.g. part numbers? Can I assume that all clutches of the largest diameter which will fit to a B flywheel are as heavy as each other, or is there a better-than-the-others type to go for? Will be looking for one very soon :cool2:

Edited April 14, 2010 by N.O.S.

[snowtracdave]

Have you seen the latest CMV.......Do you think it is you has upset Mr.Blackman perchance ?

[Grasshopper]

I can't help disagreeing with him a bit, as dieselizing a Ward will increase its useability and therefore value!

 

Known good conversions that have proved themselves over the years are worth (and have sold for) the same prices as original vehicles. Of a course a pristine example will always be worth a bit more, but you'd need a trailer to move it around on! Also, if you really know Wards, then you would know that not one is completely original.....(except maybe a couple in the Army cars collection). Mike, Mark and I do enjoy playing the "thats not original on your truck" game around a camp fire after a couple of beers....

 

Anyway, if you can't see the engine and the external condition is unaltered, and don't know what it should have in it, who cares?

[Markheliops]

Have you seen the latest CMV.......Do you think it is you has upset Mr.Blackman perchance ?

 

I haven't seen this snowtracdave -

 

What's the story?