restoration Markheliops' Ward La France diesel conversion

[TooTallMike]

Ooo... someone tell me what it says???

 

- MG

[ArtistsRifles]

The editorial comments are on the topic of altering MV's in these times of rip-off fuel prices to fit more modern, fuel efficient units. The thrust of the comments were that to do so detracts significantly from the value of the vehicle - particularly WW2 era ones.

I have to admit - agree with Grasshopper on this one - if the vehicles are more made usable then they still fulfil the function of educating people and this can only be a good thing..

[snowtracdave]

The editorial piece mentions , amongst other bits , the modification of an historic mv by the fitting of a modern diesel engine and how in Mr B's opinion this has ruined the originality and long term value of the vehicle .

 

Ah - bit of duplication , you beat me on the keyboard there Neil !

Edited April 14, 2010 by snowtracdave

[Adrian Barrell]

Well you cannot argue with the facts! Fitting a modern diesel does 'ruin' the originality as the engine is such a large part of the vehicles character (for good or bad!) I'm sure in the long term it also affects it's value compared to other, non modified examples. However, whether this is a bad thing is entirely down to personal opinion. Nothing in Marks Ward would prevent it being converted back if some future owner desired it and from an operational point of view, it will be a far better vehicle now.

 

His truck, his choice!

[N.O.S.]

I think B's comments become more relevant the rarer the vehicle. If I had a unique or very rare machine I would certainly think twice about it. After all you need to do a fair few miles to recoup the cost of a conversion on fuel cost alone. Reliability is also important, but a well-maintained petrol engine shouldn't cause major problems.

 

Another big factor: is it a collectible i.e. a 'what's in my shed' piece, or is it one to use frequently out and about? If I was after a vehicle to use regularly I'd place as much value in a good conversion than an original. Totally down to personal opreference.

 

When fuel hits £5 a litre it will all become academic anyway!

[Markheliops]

Oh well -

 

At the end of the day - I own a Ward La France which I have kept running out of funds from my own pocket.

 

I agree it does ruin the originality of the vehicle but then again, I never brought my Ward to stand there and look at it.

 

My enjoyment comes from taking the vehicle out on to the open road and driving it. People like Mike and I get enjoyment from using the vehicle and taking it back and forth to shows.

 

I really don't see too many people sticking their heads under the bonnet at shows checking out to see if the vehicle has it's genuine engine or not.

 

Yes I would have loved to keep my Ward with its petrol engine as it is nice to have a vehicle as it was in the 40's. However, I get far more enjoyment from driving the vehicle and when keeping such a vehicle going costs the owner thousands of pounds of his / her own money I would suggest it is down to the individual owners choice - as stated by Adrian.

 

As fuel prices increase I was left with very little options if I wanted the Ward to remain useable.

 

Another issue is spares. If you own a Jeep or GMC etc spares are readily available should you break something or need to carry out routine maintenance. If you own a Ward La France spares are increasingly difficult to find - especially main components so if something breaks - as happened to me on route to Bolero - the only option I had to repair the truck was purchase another Ward La France. Not very practical is it!!!

 

I suppose the last thing to think about is A&E.

 

I have converted the Ward La France because I very much wanted to attend the show. If the conversion had not been carried out, the Ward La France would not be there and I strongly suspect neither would Mike’s truck be present either.

 

So - is it better to have the trucks at the show so people can look around them and see a piece of Second World War machinery even though they have been converted to a diesel engine - or - is it better no one will see them as neither trucks would be present.

 

Markheliops

[Grasshopper]

I like the fact that you and Mike are now "bastardizers". Its in print....

 

(Mike, will bring the mag over at some point soon)

[Markheliops]

Can't wait to see it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[chevpol]

end of the day, it is your vehicle to do with what you want with it isnt it?

 

Mark

[TooTallMike]

I want to drive my truck. i want to use it to tow and pull and winch and lift and mess about having fun.

 

Never mind the fuel economy, a petrol WLF is a truly awful thing to drive any sort of distance because it is grossly underpowered for use in modern traffic, so unless folks only ever want to see these types of vehicles gathering cobwebs in museums they will have to recognise that some form of compromise is going to be necessary. Note that fuel economy is not the driving factor here: when my truck was petrol I would finish any journey exhausted. Now I am as fit as when I started.

 

This is not to mention the benefits in terms of reliability and off-season fuel stability.

 

I believe that in the next few years there will be a big forced shift in our hobby from focusing on originality to focusing on practicality. With this in mind I further believe that a well dieselised vehicle will soon (if not already) command a price premium over its petrol brothers.

 

Everyone is of course entitled to their own opinions and I fully repect the purists' point of view, however I personally do not agree with it.

 

- MG

[Chrisg]

I like the fact that you and Mike are now "bastardizers". Its in print....

 

(Mike, will bring the mag over at some point soon)

 

:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

[kpu121265]

It is your vehicle, and in my opinion i would rather see it on the road solar powered (if the doom mongers are to be believed that is where we are all heading) than not see it all. I have been through the same mental process over the half tracks, Diamond T and will soon enough have the sherman guzzling fuel faster than i can pour it it. They will all remain engined as original until there is a time when something needs to be done. I have had numerous people telling me i should re-engine the big vehicles, but have chosen not to, in the same way you have chosen to.

When we bought the sherman in the US, there was a lot of (quite rightly i suppose from that side of the world) squawking about another piece of US hitsory being exported never to be seen again. I was quite hurt by it at the time, but the piont is that it will be restored, will join the fleet of 80th Div/702nd tank vehicles, will be shown and one day will make it back to Normandy to roll up the same beach that those vehicles did in early July 1944 - my only sincere hope is that i can get it done in time for there still to be some veterans still alive to see it (or at least see the pictures).

From a purely financial perspective (as i have no experience of driving a ward any distance, but the Diamond T is challenge enough over 30 - 40 miles), as with the sherman, i was the one prepared to put my hand in my pocket and 'rescue it', and am currently pumping cash in to it to get it back to it's former glory. As far as i am aware, for by far the vast majority of us (from Wellbikes to Tanks) this is a personal endeavour (MV ownership) - seeing these vehicles maintained and showed is the most important thing surely. As i undrstand it,this vehicle is being altered in a way that it can be returned to it's original configuration should that be required.

From a neutral standpoint, not personally knowing the individuals concerned, i think it is a shame that a specific project was brought to the attention of the readers of that publication, when the editors point could have been made in a much more generic way.

Mark, i wish you all the very best with your project, and look forward to you being able to rescue me in the sherman if i ever get it stuck - and i don't personally care what is under the bonnet it's your bonnet.

 

Regards

 

Ken

[gritineye]

I want to drive my truck. i want to use it to tow and pull and winch and lift and mess about having fun.

 

Never mind the fuel economy, a petrol WLF is a truly awful thing to drive any sort of distance because it is grossly underpowered for use in modern traffic, so unless folks only ever want to see these types of vehicles gathering cobwebs in museums they will have to recognise that some form of compromise is going to be necessary. Note that fuel economy is not the driving factor here: when my truck was petrol I would finish any journey exhausted. Now I am as fit as when I started.

 

This is not to mention the benefits in terms of reliability and off-season fuel stability.

 

I believe that in the next few years there will be a big forced shift in our hobby from focusing on originality to focusing on practicality. With this in mind I further believe that a well dieselised vehicle will soon (if not already) command a price premium over its petrol brothers.

 

Everyone is of course entitled to their own opinions and I fully repect the purists' point of view, however I personally do not agree with it.

 

- MG

 

Couldn't have put it better myself Mike, fitting a relatively modern diesel has transformed my enjoyment of my Explorer.

 

Before I finally freed myself from my debilitating originality hangup, it had lain unloved and neglected for over a year, due to reliability, recovery costs, and spares problems.

 

I think this is indeed the way forward if these vehicles are to be seen out and about in the future.

Edited April 16, 2010 by gritineye

[TooTallMike]

From a neutral standpoint, not personally knowing the individuals concerned, i think it is a shame that a specific project was brought to the attention of the readers of that publication, when the editors point could have been made in a much more generic way.

I've not seen the editorial itself yet so I cannot comment specifically on that but I do believe any publicity is good publicity, both for the forum and for myself, as this not by any means the last of these conversion projects I have in mind .

 

- MG

[Adrian Barrell]

as this not by any means the last of these conversion projects I have in mind .

 

- MG

 

Heathen! :-D

[N.O.S.]

And if the point being made is that to convert a vehicle detracts from its value, I'd answer by arguing that if we bought our vehicles to use and enjoy them, not simply as an investment, that point has little clout (with me at least). If by the time I've finished with my vehicles they were worthless (let's face it, in 20 years time who knows!) then they'd still have served their purpose.

 

I thought we were all obsessed with our vehicles, not their value.........

[Adrian Barrell]

I don't think their value is of interest to most of us. However, as historic military vehicles, originality is important.

We all have different thoughts on this I'm sure depending on what we want to do with our vehicles. I have no problem whatsoever with what anybody does with their vehicle, similarly I don't expect to be labelled as an obsessive purist if I choose to keep mine as built.

[LoggyDriver]

I can see the point he was making about "originality", but did find the language used rather "strong".

 

At the end of the day, if someone has the money to keep a vehicle original then that is great. To see a 70 year old engine working like the day it was made is a wonderful sight. However with the way the fuel prices are going (totally unjustified increases in my mind) then things need to be done to enable future enjoyment of the vehicle.

 

A classic example is the M series US vehicles. These were all petrol powered in the early years but even the US Government saw the sense in converting these vehicles into diesel powered units to make them more reliable, useable and cheaper to run.

 

To be honest if I was ever looking for a WLF and two came up at once, one original and the other with a professional standard diesel conversion then I would opt for the diesel as this would be far cheaper to run. And we all buy these vehicles to DRIVE and enjoy. A show is just a reason to drive the vehicle and the public get the chance to see the said vehicle as a consequence.

 

Maybe you should hang on to the petrol engine if it's a conversion that would enable the engine to be re fitted then if you do put it up for sale you can state that it's fitted with a diesel but can be converted back to original. I bet though 99 times out of a 100 that the new owner would leave the diesel where it is.

 

It's your vehicle and you can do with it how you please. Instead of having a go, maybe Mr B should be targeting certain shows that CHARGE the owners of vehicles to show them, then that would be £25 more in the fuel kitty.

 

Best of luck with the conversion Mark.

[rambo1969]

I met a fella at w+p a few years back who had a willys, he had a peugeot diesel fitted and people were queing up to buy it!

 

Your motor mark, yours to do what you want with it.

 

Just don't paint it pink!!

[Markheliops]

Thanks for your comments chaps!

 

I see both sides of the discussion but like Loggydriver, I found the wording and tone of Mr B's words a bit on the strong side.

 

Does anyone know if Mr B actually owns his own MV?

 

If he doesn't, I don't think it very fair he comments on the matter of costs, as he wouldn't be in the same boat as us MV owners.

 

I wouldn't mind but he didn't get his facts right nor the reason I am converting the Ward either - (if he is actually commenting on my truck).

 

I have always got on with Mr B and I shall be taking this up with him when our paths next cross.

 

I am also thinking about writing a reply to CMV mag with my response.

 

One final thing to think about - CMV is a magazine brought by us MV owners who own and run MV's. If the editor is going to start slagging owners off for what they do to there own vehicles, I can see sales starting to go down.

 

I would like to see an article in the magazine detailing a good conversion to a WWII vehicle and then the whys and ifs can be debated. I am not the first to convert a vehicle and you can guarentee I shall not be the last.

 

Markheliops

[R Cubed]

Oh well -

 

I have converted the Ward La France because I very much wanted to attend the show. If the conversion had not been carried out, the Ward La France would not be there and I strongly suspect neither would Mike’s truck be present either.

 

So - is it better to have the trucks at the show so people can look around them and see a piece of Second World War machinery even though they have been converted to a diesel engine - or - is it better no one will see them as neither trucks would be present.

 

Markheliops

 

I would say if it is a vehicle that can be used on the road and the owner likes taking it to shows which are a fare distance then if it is a case of keeping the whole thing original and not being able to afford to fuel it so it stays in a shed out of sight, or to fit a modern diesel and be able to show it so people can appreciate the vehicle and see what it can do, then put a diesel in it.

 

If the vehicle has to be trailered anywhere then it should stay as original as possible as there is not really any reason for doing anything else.

 

The final thing is, it is the owners decision to do what he likes, some would say using a second vehicle as spares is bad as that too could have been restored, but where do you draw the line, end of the day its up to the owner to do what he likes and that's all you have to worry about...

[Adrian Barrell]

I think you've summed it up very well there Richard!

[Snapper]

.

 

I would like to see an article in the magazine detailing a good conversion to a WWII vehicle and then the whys and ifs can be debated. I am not the first to convert a vehicle and you can guarentee I shall not be the last.

 

 

 

My view is that this all appears to be about keeping a treasured truck, which is more than just a mass of metal in Mark's heart, on the road. The sad realities of the economy, spares and much more have to be considered.Originality is always a casualty - sad, but true.. Mark had to make some hard choices. In the end this personal choice is about keeping a classic truck in use.

 

I would welcome any of you chaps, who are experienced in these technical/practical matters doing an article on this subject for The Pathfinder. NOT as a criticism of anyone else by any means - not my agenda or yours - but exactly as Mark says - for the practical explanation.

 

Any takers? Happy to discuss...

 

MB

[CVRTNick]

Knowing all three “Heathens” & having the good sense not get involved in something 60plus years old & moan about it (for not being up to modern traffic speeds,theirs a suprise!).My thoughts are,if the issue is not just about speed,but its lack of power (& these trucks where underpowered from the factory).I’m okay with it as long as it is a two way street (you can put the right engine back in),my truck an M series US vehicle (1959 M55 LWB 5-ton truck) doesn’t sufferer from being underpowered (a 10L petrol) + it makes a lovely sound with its straight though exhaust!But a lack of power in the Ward La France explains way most WWII GMCs are still petrol,in the end its down to the owners choice.

[Jack]

Good points all round but lets get back on track - back on to the conversion!