montie Posted January 8, 2012 Author Share Posted January 8, 2012 (edited) Was feeling a bit lazy and decided to check the "X" dimensions as per the manual. I couldn't decide why one would take the dimension to the bottom of the cover? The cover thickness was promptly measured and added to the given dimensions, also converting them to millimeters. I then made up the special tool as shown in the Tech repair manual but to the new dimensions. I also decided that a reference would make so much easier because of working alone. Folded out of .8mm stainless and drilled to hold the special tool, it was bolted down with existing cover bolts, checking for clearance. The findings are as follows and a little shocking....... As can be seen, the "X" dimension for first gear is more than 25mm or 1" off! Dimensins for 2nd and fourth gear is also identical to that of 1st gear! Checking the relative spacing, one can see there is a definite problem here. looking at the drawing above, could the tool be positioned incorrectly? It seems that the pull rods must definitely be shortened. I presume this is by means of the adjuster nuts, screwing them clockwise until the desired dimensions are obtained, checking the lenghts by cycling the gear change pedal. A thought occurred to me while comtemplating this.... This is a Saracen 88 and might have a different gearbox. I took some snaps of the gearbox plate but the plate with the Alvis part number is missing. Whether the South African number corresponds, is unknown to me. Your comments, please.... Edited January 8, 2012 by montie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Farrant Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 Was feeling a bit lazy and decided to check the "X" dimensions as per the manual. I couldn't decide why one would take the dimension to the bottom of the cover? The cover thickness was promptly measured and added to the given dimensions, also converting them to millimeters.[ATTACH=CONFIG]55529[/ATTACH] ... Hi Montie, A bit confused by your first paragraph, the bus bar height is taken from the top face of the gearbox casing, the part you have arrowed at the top is only the fixture part of the measuring tool. You set the rod down in the valley of the busbar and measure from tip of rod to top face of box, ie under the fixture. Done this hundreds of times! Just a thought, perhaps the tip of the rod is not in the right place, also, no need ot bolt the cross piece / fixture down, just postion it drop rod and tighten pinch screw so you can measure off. Also, when you select and engage each screw do you see each adjuster move across? Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montie Posted January 8, 2012 Author Share Posted January 8, 2012 A bit confused by your first paragraph, the bus bar height is taken from the top face of the gearbox casing, the part you have arrowed at the top is only the fixture part of the measuring tool. You set the rod down in the valley of the busbar and measure from tip of rod to top face of box, ie under the fixture. Done this hundreds of times! Ahh.... Richard, I did not realise it was part of the tool! One mistake that must be sorted. I will mod my version, the original is much better and easier to use! Just a thought, perhaps the tip of the rod is not in the right place, also, no need ot bolt the cross piece / fixture down, just postion it drop rod and tighten pinch screw so you can measure off. I was worried about that, it is a bit difficult to see down there, also it is below the oil level. I will fiddle a bit with it to check. Also, when you select and engage each screw do you see each adjuster move across? I held the tool, feeling for movement as I switched gears and cycling the gear change pedal. The tool definitely rises as one lets go on the gear change pedal. The adjuster mechanisms also moves when selecting other gear and cycling the pedal although I am not certain this is what you meant? Thanks very much for your patience with me, I am sure this must be very frustrating for you... and then some! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Farrant Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 Ahh.... Richard, I did not realise it was part of the tool! One mistake that must be sorted. I will mod my version, the original is much better and easier to use! I was worried about that, it is a bit difficult to see down there, also it is below the oil level. I will fiddle a bit with it to check. I held the tool, feeling for movement as I switched gears and cycling the gear change pedal. The tool definitely rises as one lets go on the gear change pedal. The adjuster mechanisms also moves when selecting other gear and cycling the pedal although I am not certain this is what you meant? Thanks very much for your patience with me, I am sure this must be very frustrating for you... and then some! Montie, What I meant was to select and engage each gear in turn and make sure all five adjusters move across, 1st gear is nearest the back and top is at the engine end. All you have to do when measuring is first select a given gear, if your tool has a pinch bolt to clamp the rod, set the rod out a bit,delve around through the oil until you are sure it is in the valley of the busbar, then slide cross piece down and clamp it, withdraw tool and wipe the end .... oh sorry, thinking of something else :blush:........ measure the tool, I mean rod. ..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montie Posted January 9, 2012 Author Share Posted January 9, 2012 What I meant was to select and engage each gear in turn and make sure all five adjusters move across, 1st gear is nearest the back and top is at the engine end. Hi Richard, thanks for the reply. All five adjusters do move, although not the same amount as shown by the pics in post 372. I will modify the tool, ha-ha , fiddle a bit to ensure correct seating and take the measurements again :angel: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Farrant Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Hi Richard, thanks for the reply. All five adjusters do move, although not the same amount as shown by the pics in post 372. I will modify the tool, ha-ha , fiddle a bit to ensure correct seating and take the measurements again :angel: Hi Montie, It is likely some of the gear bands are out of adjustment, hence the difference in movement. Once you have fiddled with your tool we can move on to the next stage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montie Posted January 10, 2012 Author Share Posted January 10, 2012 Hi Richard, I got round tonight to make up the tool and took the measurements. I battled getting the measurement when in 5th gear... Definitely a need for adjustment, I am ready for lesson number 2.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Farrant Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Montie, PM sent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montie Posted January 11, 2012 Author Share Posted January 11, 2012 Montie, PM sent Hi Richard, it's my son's birthday celebration today. I'll get round to doing it tomorrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Farrant Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Hi Richard, it's my son's birthday celebration today. I'll get round to doing it tomorrow. Hi Montie, not a problem Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montie Posted January 16, 2012 Author Share Posted January 16, 2012 Hi Richard, PM sent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montie Posted January 23, 2012 Author Share Posted January 23, 2012 Hi Richard, is tonight an option? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Farrant Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Hi Richard, is tonight an option? Hi Montie, Should be OK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montie Posted January 25, 2012 Author Share Posted January 25, 2012 I made a short video with my son's help regarding the cycling of the gearbox. Hope it helps? [video=youtube;x-ltTR8_MFk] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Farrant Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I made a short video with my son's help regarding the cycling of the gearbox. Hope it helps? [video=youtube;x-ltTR8_MFk] Hi Montie, OK I am getting to see the problem, can we have a chat? I will PM you. Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montie Posted January 29, 2012 Author Share Posted January 29, 2012 Richard, thanks again for your time the other night! We are highly impressed with your knowledge as you demonstrated during our work session in the Saracen. I think it was a first on this forum to direct somebody on what to do and how to do it by means of Skype! And everything worked out well! I will close up tomorrow night and check the gearchange pedal play then and I think there shouldn't be need for a lot of adjustments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Farrant Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 Richard, thanks again for your time the other night! We are highly impressed with your knowledge as you demonstrated during our work session in the Saracen. I think it was a first on this forum to direct somebody on what to do and how to do it by means of Skype! And everything worked out well! I will close up tomorrow night and check the gearchange pedal play then and I think there shouldn't be need for a lot of adjustments. Hi Montie, It was a pleasure, glad to be of assistance. Must say it was the first time I had used Skype for inter-continental diagnostics ! Hope all goes well on the testing. best regards, Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bart615 Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 I remember driving these little babies in Northern Ireland back in the '70's and '80's. I loved 'em! The wheel slopes away from you and you must 'thread' the wheel through you hands when steering... NO crossing you hands in this one. No clutch but a GCP ie gear change pedal. You select your gear, slam the gcp to the deck and release, accelerate and you're away. Select the next higher gear but it won't change up until you slam the gcp again. Changing down is similar, select the next lower gear, but this time when you slam the gcp hit the throttle at the same time, this is a bit like double-de-clutching in a crash box. Before initial driving on a morning, you have to 'toggle' up. This involves slamming the gcp in each gear around 10 times, engine OFF which tightens up the drivebelts. Beware, and be prepared for it to 'kick back' which results in the gcp returning heavily and with no remorse! You can sometimes find your knee next to your left lughole if you're not careful, it doesn't hurt but it can take you by surprise! It has a Rolls Royce BA80 engine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montie Posted February 3, 2012 Author Share Posted February 3, 2012 I remember driving these little babies in Northern Ireland back in the '70's and '80's. I loved 'em! The wheel slopes away from you and you must 'thread' the wheel through you hands when steering... NO crossing you hands in this one. No clutch but a GCP ie gear change pedal. You select your gear, slam the gcp to the deck and release, accelerate and you're away. Select the next higher gear but it won't change up until you slam the gcp again. Changing down is similar, select the next lower gear, but this time when you slam the gcp hit the throttle at the same time, this is a bit like double-de-clutching in a crash box. Before initial driving on a morning, you have to 'toggle' up. This involves slamming the gcp in each gear around 10 times, engine OFF which tightens up the drivebelts. Beware, and be prepared for it to 'kick back' which results in the gcp returning heavily and with no remorse! You can sometimes find your knee next to your left lughole if you're not careful, it doesn't hurt but it can take you by surprise! It has a Rolls Royce BA80 engine. Hi Bart, welcome to the forum! Yeah, I haven't had the opportunity to drive it yet but the GCP "kick"is not totally unfamiliar, hence this 'to and fro" between me and Richard. A couple of times I had my knee behind my left ear! I think we have the problem licked, but as they say, " the proof is in the eating!" when I drive it. Although this is a South African version, it is identical to the so-called Saracen 88 and South Africa has/had 280 of them! Check page 7 or 8 of this thread where Recemech picked up the difference. I have yet to come across the dieselised version, though! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montie Posted February 7, 2012 Author Share Posted February 7, 2012 I eventually got round to close up the gearbox and started on the GCP bulkhead panel. After a trial fit and operating the GCP, the GCP needed more adjustment. After quite some to and fro, I got the play right and being able to select the different gears. Great, so now when fitting the little bottom floor panel, guess what! More interference. So, a small modification and there we go, all operating flawlessly. This interference must have been a problem for some time judging by the paint indicating contact with the GCP. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montie Posted April 19, 2012 Author Share Posted April 19, 2012 This Saracen 88 is still used today by a security company for crowd control in South Africa and is seeing regular service! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montie Posted April 27, 2012 Author Share Posted April 27, 2012 Hi Richard, Fortunately that problem was sorted with a specially turned-up tap. Interestingly, when checking the threads with a thread gauge, the metric 1.25mm pitch rides ever so slightly on the plug threads whereas the 20 teeth per inch fits perfectly. Checking the plug outside diameter, it comes to a perfect 30.02 mm as against the 1 and 3/16" that should measure 30.1625mm. So, I had the "tap" turned up to 30mm OD and 20 teeth per inch. Voila, everybody happy! So this morning, being a public holiday with perfect weather, I tackled the damaged thread on the Lower suspension arm with the "tap", the tap is a bit on the soft side, but after dressing the tap and the plug threads with a thread file, dressing the entrance of the plug hole with a rotary file, a lot of grunting, shoving, bitching, lubricating, swearing, the hole threads were chased, plug reinstalled and wheel replaced. Now I am all smiles. I have been promised useable wheel reduction box spares from England at a reasonable price at the end of this month, so the next obstacle will be that dreaded wheel reduction box. I am rather nervous about the correct assembly of this wheel station, I don't want to see a repeat! Last big challenge will be the replacement the oil seals on the lefthand centre bevel box. Have already procured the seals, so it is a matter of taking things apart for the replacements! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haybaggerman Posted April 27, 2012 Share Posted April 27, 2012 Hi montie Been off the thread for a while, good to see you are making progress. Keep up the good work Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Farrant Posted August 26, 2012 Share Posted August 26, 2012 hi Montie, No progress reports for sometime, how are you getting on with the Saracen? regards Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montie Posted August 26, 2012 Author Share Posted August 26, 2012 hi Montie,No progress reports for sometime, how are you getting on with the Saracen? regards Richard You are right Richard, thanks for your interest! It is winter over here and quite chilly outside by the time I get home in the evenings, so very little productive work going on at the moment. I had my nephew, an earthmoving equipment dieselmech, troubleshoot the lack of power steering on the sarry. He opened the steering box and guess what!? More silicon found in the internals. He cleaned it up a bit, reassembled, and adjusted one of the valves, it reacts a bit better to the one side but turning to the other side is still bad. I guess both the valves will also have to come out, be cleaned and checked before we can go much further on this challenge. It took some figuring out from the drawing on how the power steering operates, the design does seem quite simple with the system relying on back pressure to get the job done! Another big job still outstanding is the centre bevelbox on the left side, it is leaking oil badly. I have already purchased the seals but don't look forward to removing the drive shafts for access, remembering the hassles on the driver's right hand side! I hate to think that the fuel tank might have to come out again. This much said, the gearbox is closed up but the panels not reinstalled for this reason. Come summer, there will be (several) late nights again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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