WW2 British Army liveries.

[modeller]

Hello Gentlemen !:yay:

 

I am an active modeller and have been for many years, primarily interested in railways. (I know; yawn, yawn!) The point is that when making my model railways (yes, plural...), I do make the attempt to get my basic facts right and that's why I'm here.

 

I am currently in the process of finishing off a 1942-4 period Great Western model railway set on the edge of Salisbury plain. (WW2 is a good period to model for a small branch line as traffic was up by 25% so the goods trains are longer and therefore more interesting to shunt.) The model features removed station name boards, a white line along the platform edge and on the edges of the buildings thereupon, and period advertisements. One option I have for a way of increasing the period atmostphere is to represent military traffic to Salisbury plain. To this end, I would ask three questions;

 

1 What do forum members think might have been collected from/delivered to a small country station on the edge of Salisbury Plain by AEC Matadors in around 1942-44? I say Matadors as conveniently available for the purpose is the old Airfix model, of which I have collected a small number for this very purpose. I would prefer not to use the 5.5" guns which come with the kits, more general military stores being preferable; but what might be a suitable load which could be placed in railway vans or tarpaulined open wagons and loaded "by hand" either directly from the track-side (rail to truck) or using a loading bank (truck to rail?), both of which areas are available. Might a mixed section of Matador and Bedford QL trucks be seen together? (I.e, if I took the QL cab and put it on the Matador chassis with the tilt body would that be a reasonable approximation of a British army vehicle?)

2 I would also like to ask what vehicles might have been used to transport Army fuel from such a rail-head to stock-piles on the plain? I do have an Airfix ACE Matty 6x6 in the RAF refuelling kit but did the army use them too?:help: Or would the Bedford QL, without the RAF refuelling booms on the top, be more prototypical?

3 Then there's the Scammel Tank transporter; other than using it as it is, can anyone suggest what a scammell might be at a station for? (Either as a tank-transporter, presumably collecting a one-off load - I don't have room for several! - or in some other form perhaps. Any one know of any interesting "special purpose" Scammel vehicles I could use?

 

Many thanks for reading this thus far and you help, and in particular any links to appropriate reference photos, would be much appreciated.:readbook:

 

Regards,

[Snapper]

I doubt very much if the Matador would have been used in any such role because it was primarily an artillery tractor. If you can marry up a QL cab then you will have an approximation which you would get away with but you will not be satisfied. You would be better with O series cabbed Bedfords like you find with the old Queen Mary Trailer set, but these are not easy to find are they! - and they'd not fit anything else. I would think you might be better lookin at one of the specialist 1/76th MV makers and get a few straight models rather than break the Airfix classics.

 

There is no use for a Scammell unless you use it purely for fun because they look so good. You might get away with the odd 1/76th jeep - but an Austin 10 car or suchlike (any of the Tillies) would be far better.

 

I'm spending your money for you.

Edited August 19, 2008 by Snapper
typos

[Tony B]

Matador's were primarly artillery tractoctrs. Most delivery work from station to base especially in UK would have been done by R.A.S.C. or civillians contractors. Vehicles would have been mostly 4x2 Austins and OY Bedfords. The QL has a trooper version, fuel would have been shifted in jerrycans not a bowser. Any sort of cargo could be moved, ammunition, cement for construction, timber, bog paper. Matador and QL would be seen togetherso would Austin K3 and OY as they suppoerted the guns.

[LeeEnfield]

Just a quick thought,........1944 is mentioned in opening post,......I know the american forces were based from portsmouth westwards, on the build up to the 6th,......did that include salisbury plain ??

(if so, I'm thinking the vehicles being depicted would need to be changed to jimmys, etc)

 

As I say, just a thought........

 

Andy

[modeller]

Thank you for your input so far; an interesting set of responses. From what you say, a fair number of recent films/TV programmes are wrong in featuring Matadors as general work-horses... Mind you, they can't get trains right either so what do I expect? The point about using the Matador is that it is a) recognizable as a military vehicle to the "great unwashed", and b) it is cheap and easily available; QL cabs are only available as one of two vehicles in the RAF re-fuelling set at 3 times the price; a group of 4 or 5 sounds like an expensive option!

As Tony B mentions 4x2 Austins and Bedford OYs, can anyone point me to any photos available on the web?

Thanks for your replies and I hope there will be more over the next few days; it all helps me gain an overall "picture". Oh, and sorry about the "livery" title: that was the original intention of the question but the thought occurred to me that maybe I was "barking up the wrong tree" with Matadors - typical of the British to make assumptions! - and it seems I was right; I was! Therefore, appropriate liveries can come later as it seems I was right to ask for help with the subject models.... ;^D

Edited August 19, 2008 by modeller
Hit "Tab" before I'd finished. (And what did I hit wrong now??)

[les freathy]

A few thoughts on your railway model, i have been a keen 1/76 scale modeller since 1970 and have over these years become very critical and precise on the way the vehicles should look and believe me the cheapest sources are not always the best for results and satisfaction these days i build and cast a lot of my own parts to achieve the desired result. You mention use ing the QL cab which to be honest would not work as the QL is a 3 ton truck and the Matador a 7 ton heavy tractor it would be like a pea on a drum plus both the QL and Matador wheels from airfix should be consigned to the bin as both are to small and the wrong pattern. the Airfix Bedford OX tractor cab again totally useless to small in the cab area. There is a polish company that have just produced a Bedford QL and also A radio truck in plastic, i will come back to you with the name but they should be on general release at good model shops. As for the Bedford OY Transport Images form Whitstable produce a proper OY cab in resin and also in white metal BW models have started to produce WW2 vehicles including a Bedford OY and AustinK3 3 tonners and can also supply a proper set of wheels for the Mat. MMS have also in the past couple of years turned there attention to British WW2 trucks and include super 3 ton Austins and Commers plus a fine range of Morris 15 cwts. I hope this info is helpful to you and not to discouraging if you require address,s etc i will put these up for you, i like your idea for the layout and trust these pointers will help you achieve a better result

cheers

Les

[Tony B]

Pictures? Plenty round here, to start QL. the Trooper furthest away the QLR nearest. Try button holing tim at the bar, he might know of any earlier trucks used at the time, that would add an oddity.

[modeller]

Hello Les,

 

Many thanks for the info on 1/76th scale models: yes, some addresses would be useful, especially if any of them have websites. (Doesn't everyone these days?) Perhaps more to the point is that you chaps are all using a short-hand which means nothing to me!!! "Bedford", "Austin" & "Morris" I understand, of course; I know what a "Matador" and a QL look like (thanks mainly to Airfix and, was it, Corgi back in the 50s?), but the other designations have me stumped, likewise the manufacturers so sorry, but if you want to help me you'll have to dot the "i"s and cross the "t"s with names, websites/addresses etc 'coz I've never heard of them. Therefore a few "on-line" photos would be handy so I understand what you are talking about - sorry Tony B - "Pictures, plenty round here..." er, where??? Other threads on this site? Links from this site? Sorry, you'll have to explain. As it says, "Maybe I'm being thick, but..." Ah-ha!! Up comes the photo! Many thanks! Er; QLR; the "R" equals "radio shack", right???

 

Regards,

Edited August 20, 2008 by modeller
No pictures came up - they have now!

[Tony B]

Soory we do talk jargon. If you post a specific want for pictures of certain vehicles, no doubt they will appear. As you've gathered anything round here can cause, Free , Frank Discussion, otherewise known as a good row.:-D So my suggestions. The Bedford QL was a much used 3 ton General service truck, (GS) The Trooper is long backed open back with cover if required and benches down the middle. as suggested personnel carrier. The QL R (Radio) is a hard backed office type, there was also a specific office back for the QL. there was also the QLD which is a short backed version often used as workshop. The Bedford OY and Austin K3 were the main general service workhorses. Utilitys, that is Austin, Standard or Triumph pickups would also be in abundance. The little Morris C8 and Bedford MW 15 cwt were used as general runabouts, and plenty of Bicycles!! Cars of the time would also be requisitioned and used as staff cars.

[Tony B]

You can stick some US ones in at that time if you want. It would keep the peace.

[AlienFTM]

My two-penn'orth. 15/19H were wiped out by the Blitzkrieg in May 1940 as Monty fought to save the rest of 3 Div and spent the next four years training for the away leg.

 

For much of this time they trained on the frankly God-awful Covenanter, a cruiser tank with similar pedigree to the Crusader and therefore possibly a good and unusual contender for a conversion from the Airfix Crusader 3 which is a frankly poor model anyway and probably the best thing you could do with it is convert it to Covenanter.

 

When the day grew closer, 15/19H trained to be lead regiment ashore, where they would use DD Shermans. However, because the Americans dithered over whether to use DDs or not (and then used them incompetently when they did use them) there were never enough DD tanks for training. Straussler, who invented the DD concept, had based his prototype on Valentine and all DD training took place on DD Valentines. Since Valentine was also obsolete by 1944, it is safe (I think) to assume that regular troop training (on the Plain) took place in Valentines while every available Sherman went to the front line.

 

(15/19H subsequently did not get to open for the British due to under-capacity. However, courtesy of Options For Change, when 15/19H amalgamated with 13/18H to create The Light Dragoons, they acquired a history of going over the beaches first. I spoke last year to a 13/18H veteran who told how, finding themselves late at their launch point, were carried closer inshore by their landing craft crews, so far that they actually hit the beaches early, before the grunts who were able to advance up the beach behind 20-odd tons of steel armour. Compare and contrast with the use of DDs at Omaha.)

 

Having been dropped from the starting line-up for Overlord, 15/19H promptly converted to Cromwell (presumably on the Plain), in which they travelled all the way to Antwerp, where they were busy range-firing their brand new Comets when Watch am Rhein kicked off and they had to remount their old tanks to try and stem the flow of three Panzer Armies.

 

As to tank transporters. Based in Tidworth, when we needed to entrain we did so at nearby Ludgershall. AFAIK every garrison had a local railhead during the war. Come to think of it, at some point even Tidworth did, hence the main drag being Station Road (spot the clue?). We did not bother with transporters in between (though we were in CVR(T)s. I do not envisage 1942 - 44 tanks moving between barracks and railhead on transporters TBH.

Edited August 20, 2008 by AlienFTM
Mong typos

[Tony B]

Get a copy of the book 'Run Away Somebody's Coming' By Robert Houghton ISBN-0-9547505-0-0 This wil give you a lot of pictures of vehicles and loads. The title incedntally was the derogartoty term used about the Royal Army Service corp. R.A.S.C. the logistic side of the Brtitsh Army.

The musem is here http://www.24hourmuseum.org.uk/museum_gfx_en/SE000150.html

Edited August 20, 2008 by Tony B

[79x100]

Out of curiosity, I tried 'goods yard' as a search on the Imperial War Museum photo archive and found this rather nice picture.

 

[modeller]

Hello again Chaps! Lots more interesting info - although I can't say I understand a lot of "Alien" 's input, the "Valentine" I have heard of, even if I don't know what one looks like! Not to worry; the R.A.S.C. seems the ideal answer to me; I've a nice photo (in "Oil on the Rails" - HMRS) of open wagon-loads of Jerry cans being unloaded at Luggershall station into open Army trucks (fronts not visible so I can't identify them), which would satisfy my requirement for an "obviously wartime" feature in the yard. The tiny road tanker fuel depot will now become one for Spirit oil for local farmer's tractors! So, depending upon what Les comes up with I could be using QLs, Bedfords or Austins - and I don't mind which! (Looks like I now have a nice supply of 4x4 logging lorry chassis for later period layouts - and I'm not mangling period models; Hornby are still producing these, as they are most Airfix kits. Incidentally, CooperCraft do a nice AEC Monarch kit with a four-plank dropside body. Any use with a QL cab, Les?

 

Many thanks to all

[AlienFTM]

The tiny road tanker fuel depot will now become one for Spirit oil for local farmer's tractors! So, depending upon what Les comes up with I could be using QLs, Bedfords or Austins - and I don't mind which! (Looks like I now have a nice supply of 4x4 logging lorry chassis for later period layouts - and I'm not mangling period models; Hornby are still producing these, as they are most Airfix kits. Incidentally, CooperCraft do a nice AEC Monarch kit with a four-plank dropside body. Any use with a QL cab, Les?

 

Many thanks to all

 

Airfix RAF Refuelling Set sounds appropriate.

[Tony B]

I suppose this settles it, do we petion the Mod's for a Rail section? We can build a line to bring tea and biccys from the clubhouse to the various sheds and ponds.

[LeeEnfield]

Get a copy of the book 'Run Away Somebody's Coming' By Robert Houghton ISBN-0-9547505-0-0 This wil give you a lot of pictures of vehicles and loads. The title incedntally was the derogartoty term used about the Royal Army Service corp. R.A.S.C. the logistic side of the Brtitsh Army.

The musem is here http://www.24hourmuseum.org.uk/museum_gfx_en/SE000150.html

 

 

 

If anyone wants to get a copy of this VERY GOOD book,..........which I reviewed on this very forum, some time ago, the author can be contacted via,

robert@milford24.freeserve.co.uk

 

Andy

[Tony B]

Got it on your recomandation. Well worth it. :tup::

[79x100]

open wagon-loads of Jerry cans being unloaded at Luggershall station into open Army trucks (fronts not visible so I can't identify them)

 

There are people on this forum who can almost certainly identify the trucks from any angle. In fact there are some who know the underside views best of all.

 

(and we're all keen to see period photos !)

[modeller]

79x500 wrote; "". How can I refuse????

 

 

And for a larger image, without the text, try... " http://www.countrysidemodels.co.uk/images/HMVFfile/LuggershallFuelCans.jpg ".

 

Hope it's of interest...

[Degsy]

Truck looks like a Bedford OY to me, not so sure about this being a pre D Day pic though, I thought they had given up using the 4 gall 'flimsies' before this time.

[79x100]

Thanks Modeller. What a great photo. The truck looks like a Bedford OY to me.

[modeller]

OK, you're welcome! While I'm waiting for Les's reply, perhaps I could ask my last questions, about liveries (and about time, says the moderator!!):nono:What I am looking for is a rough idea about when what someone called "Mickey Mouse" overlapping circles, which I understand was an early war camoflage, stopped being used. Most of the preserved vehicles you have illustrated seem to have plain green, while I seem to remember what might be called "clouds" of dark-green over "earth" - although no doubt I'll be immediately put right on the nomenclature!!! When was that applied, roughly, so what would be the right colour(s) for a 1942 model of RASC or Army vehicles in the UK? Finally, can anyone suggest a suitable set of insignia for vehicles supplying the forces on Salisbury plain? (I guess if I can get hold of a copy of "Run Away Somebody's Coming" all will be explained when it arrives, but humour me in the meanwhile...) Many thanks again. (That's it for tonight, the pub calls...)

[Richard Farrant]

I would say it is a Bedford OXC with semi-trailer, they were often used on railhead work and there is another semi-trailer standing in the background as well.

[79x100]

Camouflage is an area where I might venture to suggest that the world of modelling is in some ways ahead of the owners of MVs.

 

This site is worth a look if you haven't already :-

 

http://www.mafva.net/other%20pages/Starmer%20camo.htm

 

Mike Starmer's books are also an indespensible reference if you want to get it right and include colour chips mixed using modelling paints. (Thoroughly nice chap as well).