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sallidan

Shell Stowage in a 'Saladin' ?.

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Hello.

I was just wondering if there are any Ex - Saladin crew men out there who could give a clue on the numbers of the different types of Ammo that was carried on board, or was it down to personal choice and opererational cercumstances ???.:-)

Cheers.

Edited by N.O.S.
Put the 'n' in' in'

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Taken from the training pamphlet No 13. Saladin Armoured car.

 

76mm Ammunition.

 

a) Shell HESH with fuse L19A1

b) Shell HE/T with fuse No. 410 Mk 2/2 or L17A1.

c) Shell smoke base ejection with fuse time No. 390

d) Shot cansiter

 

Hope the above helps.

 

Andy

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Taken from the training pamphlet No 13. Saladin Armoured car.

 

76mm Ammunition.

 

a) Shell HESH with fuse L19A1

b) Shell HE/T with fuse No. 410 Mk 2/2 or L17A1.

c) Shell smoke base ejection with fuse time No. 390

d) Shot cansiter

 

Hope the above helps.

 

Andy

Thanks for getting back to me, perhaps I wasn't very clear in what Info I was after. I know what types of rounds that where avialable for a Saladin, I was just wondering what the numbers were that were carried on board, i.e. 10 x H.E, 5 x Smoke etc etc ?.

Dan.

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I have a spare armament pamphlet for Saladin if anybody is interested.

 

Hello Adrian.

Yes, I'd be interested in the 'Armament Pamphlet'. I you'd like to contact me privatly we come sort something out.

Cheers Danny.

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Thanks for getting back to me, perhaps I wasn't very clear in what Info I was after. I know what types of rounds that where avialable for a Saladin, I was just wondering what the numbers were that were carried on board, i.e. 10 x H.E, 5 x Smoke etc etc ?.

Dan.

 

like most things, it depended on the mission and what your potential targets were.

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like most things, it depended on the mission and what your potential targets were.

 

Hello.

I 'Sort of' gatherd as much, but I just thought the military being what it is, there might have been a set mixe of rounds to start with any way !!.

Cheers.

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It also depended on what you had left after yesterday's operations and what the A Echelon had on board when they came round to replenish you.

 

Looking at the ammunition specified.

 

Shell (HE) is good for making a big bang and flattening an area full of infantry. It can also blow lumps out of soft-skinned vehicles but the best you'll get out it against armour is to destroy optics or break a track. You may get a "mobility kill" ("it's out of battle but it isn't destroyed") but it can be repaired and brought back into service.

 

HESH (High Explosive Squash Head) is the perfect compromise: it carries nearly as much HE payload as Shell but its design gives you an excellent chance of destroying a (contemporary) tank by causing massive spalling inside the vehicle (if it doesn't penetrate outright) and trashing everything inside including crew). In Scorpions (essentially the same gun, same ammo, same role as Saladin), we could spend whole days on the ranges firing nothing but HESH (actually normally HESH Prac, identical but without the HE payload so we didn't trash the targets, hard and soft).

 

Of the 42 rounds carried on Scorpion, the vast majority would always be HESH and we rarely saw Shell (or HE-Prac). I did once spend maybe a quarter hour feeding a smoke screen on a ridge, but truth be told if the battlegroup wanted smoke, it could call on it's artillery component for whom smoke was part of the day job.

 

Canister was a one-off to keep Chinese hoards at bay in Korea when the coaxial MG would burn out. (I recently reread http://www.amazon.co.uk/Assault-Crossing-River-Seine-1944/dp/1848845766 - which coincidently featured my regiment, part of the first battlegroup across the Seine in 1944 in what became the de-facto standard for an improved divisional opposed river crossing. This gives a good description of the first Sherman troop of 4/7 DG across the river fighting off a counter-attack and burning out all the MG barrels in a desperate attempt to keep them from being over-run.) By the time we came across it, the manufacture of canister rounds had been outlawed by Geneva. However, they existed and under Geneva rules, we could use them, we just couldn't make any more. Same with flame throwers. I saw flame thrower pits at Hohne ranges in the early 80s even though they were by now sanctioned.

 

But the canister round (a glorified 76mm shotgun round for those that didn't know) destroys gun barrels. We'd have a demonstration of the effects of a single canister round fired from the oldest barrel in the squadron (soon to be replaced) every time we went to the ranges. We knew they existed and we had the stocks to use up, but we never expected to use them in action. Oh they they were seriously heavy.

 

So to sum up. You could expect your vehicle to be entirely loaded with HESH unless they were short, in which case you'd get Shell. Smoke on an as-required basis,

 

Hope this helps.

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It also depended on what you had left after yesterday's operations and what the A Echelon had on board when they came round to replenish you.

 

Looking at the ammunition specified.

 

Shell (HE) is good for making a big bang and flattening an area full of infantry. It can also blow lumps out of soft-skinned vehicles but the best you'll get out it against armour is to destroy optics or break a track. You may get a "mobility kill" ("it's out of battle but it isn't destroyed") but it can be repaired and brought back into service.

 

HESH (High Explosive Squash Head) is the perfect compromise: it carries nearly as much HE payload as Shell but its design gives you an excellent chance of destroying a (contemporary) tank by causing massive spalling inside the vehicle (if it doesn't penetrate outright) and trashing everything inside including crew). In Scorpions (essentially the same gun, same ammo, same role as Saladin), we could spend whole days on the ranges firing nothing but HESH (actually normally HESH Prac, identical but without the HE payload so we didn't trash the targets, hard and soft).

 

Of the 42 rounds carried on Scorpion, the vast majority would always be HESH and we rarely saw Shell (or HE-Prac). I did once spend maybe a quarter hour feeding a smoke screen on a ridge, but truth be told if the battlegroup wanted smoke, it could call on it's artillery component for whom smoke was part of the day job.

 

Canister was a one-off to keep Chinese hoards at bay in Korea when the coaxial MG would burn out. (I recently reread http://www.amazon.co.uk/Assault-Crossing-River-Seine-1944/dp/1848845766 - which coincidently featured my regiment, part of the first battlegroup across the Seine in 1944 in what became the de-facto standard for an improved divisional opposed river crossing. This gives a good description of the first Sherman troop of 4/7 DG across the river fighting off a counter-attack and burning out all the MG barrels in a desperate attempt to keep them from being over-run.) By the time we came across it, the manufacture of canister rounds had been outlawed by Geneva. However, they existed and under Geneva rules, we could use them, we just couldn't make any more. Same with flame throwers. I saw flame thrower pits at Hohne ranges in the early 80s even though they were by now sanctioned.

 

But the canister round (a glorified 76mm shotgun round for those that didn't know) destroys gun barrels. We'd have a demonstration of the effects of a single canister round fired from the oldest barrel in the squadron (soon to be replaced) every time we went to the ranges. We knew they existed and we had the stocks to use up, but we never expected to use them in action. Oh they they were seriously heavy.

 

So to sum up. You could expect your vehicle to be entirely loaded with HESH unless they were short, in which case you'd get Shell. Smoke on an as-required basis,

 

Hope this helps.

Hello.

That's very good, thanks for taking the time to get back to me. I was just wondering what sort of 'Inert' rounds I should fill the Shell racks up with, that's if I ever get enough 76mm shell cases ??!. I see that there is a Canister round for the 120mm smooth bore, which I guess wouldn't be damaged so much if at all by the shot ?.

Thanks again.

Dan.

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Wow 120mm canister now that would be seriously unfunny..! Fourfox also told me that canister was rare and destroyed barrels, but I guess once you'd fired two of them the hordes would be seriously discouraged. As an aside I bought from him a box for canister rounds which bizarrely holds 6 rounds - odd as you would never use 6, not in one vehicle anyway..

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Hi.

YES i'd be interested in the pamphlet, Ea.

 

Hi Sallidan, I have an Alvis glossy promotional booklet, 18 leaves (a bit bigger than A4 size), which covers Saladin, Saracen and Stalwart. It has a part-cutaway showing Saladin crew and some ammo stowage. Any use to you? postage only asked.

 

Steve.

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Forgive me if this sounds self-serving. It would be great if a current or future owner of this pamphlet, or anyone else who has one, could scan it and post the file here on the forum. I am sure there are enough Saracen and Saladin owners here to benefit from the effort.

 

Thank You,

 

Regards,

 

Bob

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Forgive me if this sounds self-serving. It would be great if a current or future owner of this pamphlet, or anyone else who has one, could scan it and post the file here on the forum. I am sure there are enough Saracen and Saladin owners here to benefit from the effort.

 

Thank You,

 

Regards,

 

Bob

 

Hi Bob, can I just clarify if it's the Saladin pamphlet or the Alvis booklet you would like scanned?

 

Steve.

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For a very interesting RARDE report on the performance of the 76mm HESH round against armoured targets

 

see this link:

 

http://daimler-fighting-vehicles.co.uk/develop%20daca.html

 

hit the 4th PDF icon to open....might take a while - its a very big document with pictures

 

but worth the wait.

 

 

Wow thanks for posting very interesting indeed... But probably quite painful for Daimler owners to look at!

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Hi Bob, can I just clarify if it's the Saladin pamphlet or the Alvis booklet you would like scanned?

 

Steve.

 

Steve,

 

I have Pamphlet 18 Saladin Armement as a reprint, which seems to have the same 76mm round information in this thread.

 

I am not familiar with Pamphlet 13 that Andy referenced.

 

The scans I asked about would be for the Alvis Promotional Booklet. If a reprint is available for purchase I would be happy to do so if someone would direct me. If not, I would guess others here would like to see it as well.

 

Thank You for the reply,

 

Regards,

 

Bob

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Steve,

 

I have Pamphlet 18 Saladin Armement as a reprint, which seems to have the same 76mm round information in this thread.

 

I am not familiar with Pamphlet 13 that Andy referenced.

 

The scans I asked about would be for the Alvis Promotional Booklet. If a reprint is available for purchase I would be happy to do so if someone would direct me. If not, I would guess others here would like to see it as well.

 

Thank You for the reply,

 

Regards,

 

Bob

 

Hi Bob. I will scan it this evening if I can (depending who else is using the computer) and post the pics on a new thread. If not today, then over the weekend.

 

Steve.

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Steve,

 

I have Pamphlet 18 Saladin Armement as a reprint, which seems to have the same 76mm round information in this thread.

 

I am not familiar with Pamphlet 13 that Andy referenced.

 

The scans I asked about would be for the Alvis Promotional Booklet. If a reprint is available for purchase I would be happy to do so if someone would direct me. If not, I would guess others here would like to see it as well.

 

Thank You for the reply,

 

Regards,

 

Bob

 

As you may have noticed Bob, I have done as asked. However, I still have not had anyone interested in obtaining the original, so if you want it, just PM an address and I will put it in the post.

 

Steve.

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